GIRLS DON’T COACH: Lessons From the FIRST FEMALE COACHES in NFL & MLB History

Justine Siegal was told “no man would listen to a woman on a baseball field”, and Jen Welter once thought “women don’t coach football”.

But they proved everyone wrong.

Jen became the first female coach in the NFL.
Justine became the first female coach in MLB.

In this episode, we unpack the mental toughness, resilience, and leadership it takes to break into industries that were never built for you, and how to create space for those who come after.

We covered:

• What it takes to step into a job no woman has ever held
• Why confidence is often harder to find than opportunity
• How to handle critics without losing focus
• Why representation changes the game for everyone

If you’ve ever felt like you were walking into a room you weren’t “supposed” to be in, this conversation is for you.

Connect with Jen:
🌐 Website: https://www.jenwelter.com/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/welter47/
✖️ X (Twitter): https://x.com/jwelter47
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/welter47
📚 Book: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jen-Welter/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AJen%2BWelter

Connect with Justine:
🌐 Website: https://baseballforall.com/hear-from-our-founder/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justine-siegal/
✖️ X (Twitter): https://x.com/justinebaseball
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justinesiegal/

Follow Paddy for more:
🌐 Website: www.toughness.com
📸 Instagram: @paddysgram
💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort
✖️ X (Twitter): @paddysx

 

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Jen Welter: I didn't get to play football until I was 22 years old, and when I did, I just said, I will step up to every challenge. The game puts in my way. 

[00:00:08] Justine Siegal: I decided I wanted to be a college baseball coach, and the first person I told was my coach, and he just laughed at me and he said, no man would listen to when on a baseball field 

[00:00:17] Jen Welter: know, but you can't do that if they get you eat because they want get you in at pull. We were playing for a dollar a game and a belief that if we could win in the final frontier for women in sports, that we could not only change the sport, but society in general. 

[00:00:39] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the Toughness podcast. My name is Patty Steinford, your host, and today we have two trailblazing women. On the show we have Jen Welter, who was the NFL's first ever female employed as a coach, and we have Justine Siegal, who was the first ever female employed as a coach in Major League Baseball. Welcome Jen and Justine. 

[00:01:00] Jen Welter: Thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you. 

[00:01:02] Paddy Steinfort: We're going to give you each a chance to tell a little bit of your backstory because for those who may not have followed it, it seems to become more and more common these days. But back when both of you broke through around 2015-is. I think was the year for both of you to make it to the big, so to speak.

There wasn't much of this going on. Let's start with you Jen, in in the NFL. I know that your former head coach won the Super Bowl and did it with multiple females on the staff, so he was obviously a little bit of a trailblazer in that sense as well, but what was it like for you to watch. That happened and to see some women who you might have blazed a trail for be on that stuff.

[00:01:38] Jen Welter: Well, you know, it's great to see Bruce Arians continue to champion equality, both in terms of race and gender. It is really in his DNA. I remember him telling me one time when he got his show he was gonna do it his way and. Thankfully that means, you know, his personal philosophy, which is no risk, no biscuit, and we saw that pay off in the Super Bowl, right?

He had the most diverse team to win a Super Bowl to be fielded. I look at that and, you know, it makes me smile because, you know, not only is it in theory, but a lot of those coaches I coached with, and the experience for me was, it was larger than life because there, there was no woman I could look to and say, I wanna be her throughout my football career.

Right? We were playing for a dollar a game and a belief that. If we could win in the final frontier for women in sports that we can not only change, you know, the sport, but society in general. So to have worked through to the place that. You know, I used to watch from afar was really kind of mind blowing.

[00:02:46] Paddy Steinfort: I can imagine the, the, you mentioned that the impact not only on sport, but on society. I know that Meghan Markle has gone on record of saying that when women are uplifted, the entire community is uplifted. And that's really an underlying theme of this show because both of your journeys, whilst they've impacted the sport and other women in that sport, they also, because of the stage of pro sport, they kind of trickle out into the community.

And I know that you also mentioned there that you didn't have anyone to look to as you came through. I just saw Jennifer King, who's an assistant running back coach at the Washington football team, reposted a photo side by side of Amanda Gorman, the poet laureate from the presidential inauguration next to a young, maybe a 3-year-old girl who's dressed like her.

Looking up her knowing that that is something that she can do. And it's a fascinating, a great thing to have happening now. But for you, there wasn't that. So how did you ever conceive of. I might want to go in a football and make it a full-time job and like, tell me where this, tell us where this started for you.

[00:03:42] Jen Welter: You know, a love of the game. I didn't actually know that I could make it a full-time job, but what I did know is that playing, I had some of the best practical experience you could ever have. And so I believed if I could take that and marry it with my master's in sports psychology and my PhD in psychology, that I could be a neat value proposition to the sport.

That I could have a special vantage point that would add value, and so that was my plan. I was actually coaching coaches on coach athlete relationship and feedback and all of the things that you need in coaching without seeing that, you know, I might actually be suited for a coach. And it was Wendell Davis, former Dallas Cowboy who took over as head coach on the men's team that I played for.

He saw how the guys related to me, and the next day called me after grilling me on football and said, do you have to coach my football team? And I instinctively said no. I'm like, no, no, no. I, I, I can't do that. Women, women don't coach football. And he said, not a lot of guys are gonna give you this opportunity.

You're taking this job. And though I turned it down, he actually took it on my behalf and told me about it later and told me I couldn't quit. And you know, that's something interesting about women. A lot of the times we won't project ourselves up into situations, right? That our male counterparts would because we over check the boxes.

And it did take him seeing something in me before I even saw it in myself. So it's really nice to know that now I can look at football and see themselves there, or can look at coaching and see that it's a possibility for them because I needed someone else to see it in me to make that happen. And I hope that they move with more confidence than I initially have.

[00:05:29] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. It's a similar path there in terms of both of the guests here have a PhD in psychology, so it's fast can be a fascinating chat to get under the hood of the minds of performers as well as this trailblazer theme. But Justine, you're also a PhD sports psych, I think that's correct, right?

[00:05:48] Justine Siegal: Yes. 

[00:05:48] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And so did, was the journey for you a similar one where it was like, well, there's no women coaching in baseball, so maybe I'll just. A psychologist around baseball. I know some of my colleagues in major league baseball, some of the best at my job, arguably better than me are the girls. And so was that the angle that you were looking to take, or was it a little bit of a different path for you?

[00:06:09] Justine Siegal: No, I knew I wanted to be a baseball coach. I was 13 when I was first told I should quit baseball because I was a girl, you know? And I just kind of like decided I'll play forever. And at 16, 15 16, I decided I wanted to be a college baseball coach. The first person I told was my coach, and he just laughed at me and he said, no man would listen to a woman on a baseball field.

And I was really embarrassed because I was actually a very shy kid, you know, because it was a big deal to share this dream and then to be immediately laughed at. But I just started thinking like, who is he to decide what I can do and, and what men will do? So that was a moment where I started training to become a coach, and I started working camps and learning everything I could.

And I knew I wanted to get a PhD so I could out-educate, you know, the other coaches, you know, I would have something in my toolbox that the other men didn't have. And I went on and became a college coach, and of course. Men don't care. It's a little bit of a shock at first to have a woman, but then you know, as long as you can make a better player and you care about 'em, they don't care.

They get over it very quickly. So once I coached college as an assistant coach for three years, I ended up professional in 2009, and then in 2015 broke the MLB barrier with ACE during instructional league. 

[00:07:26] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, so a long and whining path, particularly from the age of 13, that's an early time to put a target on something. I think when I was 13 I wanted to be a lawyer and then I realized what lawyers actually do. I was like, fuck no. 

[00:07:38] Jen Welter: I mean, it wasn't that courtroom drama that you just got to like argue with people.

[00:07:41] Paddy Steinfort: That's exactly what I thought it was. We could just like yell things across the courtroom and like, right. I mean, that seems cool, seems great. And then my, my cousin had a, like, he was actually at a law firm and I went and did some work experience for two weeks. They gave me a stack of papers, which was like, Hey, read this contract and spell check it. That's how old I am. It was before spell checkers on computers and it was just like, oh, that ain't me at all.

But anyway, we digress. 13 years old, you decided you wanted to be a coach, but you mentioned something in there that I suspect both of you heard more than once, which is a men won't listen to you or you can't do this. Right. I saw Jen as Justine shared that you nodded and had a little grin on your face, like, yeah, that's kind of familiar, right.

Going to be a number of experiences you both shared in terms of slaps in the face, getting doors closed in your face, pushed away, ignored, like, yeah, whatever. Tell us what toughness means in your experience, in, in terms of that pathway to being one of the first, or to pushing against people who would say no otherwise.

What does toughness look like in that scenario? 

[00:08:45] Jen Welter: You know, for me, the thing I wanna say is, you know, I heard Justine say, I knew that at 13. I think I wish I'd have had the opportunity to play at 13. Football was one of the first places in the world that, you know, I learned boys and girls were allowed to do different things and we weren't able to play then.

Right. I didn't get to play football until I was 22 years old, and when I did, I just said, I will step up to every challenge the game puts in my way. And that's been kind of my career philosophy because when you're first, it's not like the logical goal setting mechanism of like, I wanna be here and I'm gonna work backwards.

You know? Everything we were doing as women in football was groundbreaking. Right? Even playing was groundbreaking. And then as I was playing, they had the first US national team and I was like, I'm doing that. Right. And then it was the guys who said, we want you to play. And so it was continually for me just going, alright, okay, this, this is what we gotta do.

And figuring out how to do it. And I don't know if it's as much toughness as, as a lot of people would define it, as much as it was believing that this was where I belonged in the world and saying, okay, how can I be great? At each level, each level and, and what do I need to bring with me, right? Like I have people all the time ask me, how did you never quit?

And I kind of think, well, on some days I might have quit like four or five times, but I also quit at quitting because I didn't really know what else to do, right? Because it's not just a job, right? This isn't a job that I'm showing up for. This is who I am. And finding and creating and being in this space is, is a part of my identity.

So I, I don't know if it fits in the same toughness as much as saying like, this is what I was put here to do, and believing that I'm the one who's here to do it. And yeah, that means it's tough at times, especially getting tackled by guys. That was a tough one. But it's not just a show up and do it or don't do it.

This is the place and the space that I'm supposed to be involved in and it's constant reinvention and it doesn't look the same every day. Right? Yeah. Like I may not be in the NFL now. Does that mean you quit or you're not there? No, it's still a part of the journey, but the journey is like, is an evolution of being in sports and being a woman in football. 

[00:11:27] Paddy Steinfort: Right? Yeah. It's like a, a choose your own adventure almost, where like there is no storyline. You kind of choose every time it says go to this page or that page, and you have to be the first one to make that choice. It's a, a fascinating nuance that I love the, again, I love the fact that I've got two sports psychs on here because it's a nuance of like, not the traditional toughness where it's like gritch teeth can be strong or emotional endurance, but this is more like what I would refer to and, and this came to me from a baseball player who was very religious. He talked about the idea of being values driven and, and pushing with the deep purpose as spiritual stability.

It's like, life will knock me around. This will happen. That will happen. I will quit. I'll get up the next morning, I'll just go again 'cause I don't have a choice. This is who I am. And that was a really cool description from you on that concept. I'm gonna probably clip that and use it with some of my students.

Definitely. Justine, how about you? What was, what, what would you, what would you define as toughness along your journey, either that you've experienced or you may have now seen others? To carve the same journey, as we said at the start of the show, there are many more women in the game now. What, what do you perceive as as toughness for people who are trying to get through into areas they're not normally accepted?

[00:12:40] Justine Siegal: No. Well, I started as a kid. I didn't have anyone to talk to about it. I didn't have anyone to look like me. Through my journey, I've been spit on, thrown at, told again, in God's way, just flat out said no. Like, you know, I had to be the first person everywhere I went. I always had to be the first. And that wasn't my goal.

That was simply just my reality. So to me, being tough is about learning how to fail, learning how to be disappointed, have a dagger in your back and yet the next day get up and still listen to another podcast so that you can be a better coach. You know, to like, just keep working hard when everyone is telling you no, and you can't even see the light.

You can only see this concept of a goal and can you get there? And it's like, well, maybe I'll get there, but I believe it. I believe it, but I can't guarantee it. Yeah. And yet every day you're working towards something you can't guarantee and just knowing people, you know, so many people being against you.

I mean, I've been called so many things, whether it's online, whether it's in person, sexual attacks, type of, you know, verbiage online, stuff like that. But you just keep going. And I don't feel like it's, I don't feel like it's my purpose to do it. I just simply never gave up. 

[00:13:53] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. You both mentioned there different types of pain involved in the journey.

So Justine, you mentioned being stabbed in the back or having a knife in your back being attacked verbally and, and I can, I literally can't. I can only imagine that because it can't happen to me because I'm a male and it's a little different in that sense. But also, Jen, I can imagine being tackled. By grown men who are professional footballers that are twice my size, that has happened to me and it's physically painful.

And so both of you have experienced a mixture of both physical pain. Justine, you mentioned being hit by pitches. Jen, you also would've had your share of emotional pain along the way, and yet with pain and when it hurt, you still kept going. And so I'm curious to explore that element a little bit, particularly in light of what you said there, Justine, around there's no guarantee, like I could do all this and it ends up with zero. I've put, gone through all this pain, I'm gonna get hit again. I'm gonna get called names again, and yet here I go with no guarantee either of you can grab that and run with it. But I'm really curious to, to hear and share potentially with the listeners some of your strategies for, it hurts, but I'm still gonna keep going.

[00:15:00] Justine Siegal: For me, I would say that it was always a bigger picture, so if my head was gonna keep pitting against the wall, trying to break through. It was to make the crack for the people behind me to get in. So as much as I was following my passion what I wanted to do, I knew that I could build something bigger than myself. And so that motivation kept me going when days I didn't wanna get out of bed. Yeah. 

[00:15:23] Paddy Steinfort: So a connection to a bigger purpose. Jen, how about you? 

[00:15:27] Jen Welter: Well, I mean, my, my book is called Play Big, which means playing for something bigger than yourself. So, yes, absolutely, but. If you're playing for something bigger, then it means that it's not just the outcome, it's the destination, right?

Like there's no way that I could do everything that I do every day and quote unquote not get something in the end because there's not an end game. I've done more than anybody ever thought possible, and so everything I do is more than I ever imagined. And to me, that's the challenge. And that's also what makes it so exciting, right?

How do we look at this place and this space that we are in the world? Like I'm a kid who loved puzzles, right? I like to connect the dots. I wanna figure it out. Okay, so there's a barrier for resistance here. Why? Okay. Well, we haven't been socialized yet. So that means we don't just need them to have me, we need to have a bigger purpose conversation.

Does that mean that we can shift the narrative in eSports in a way that they could see maybe through Madden, something that doesn't yet exist in the real world, right? Like could we create that? What you need to see in a space that is theoretical, but already has that psychological power. So to me, every day has different challenges that don't, aren't just worth the sum total of some end game. 

They're worth everything that we do every day. That's what invigorates me, right? Every day is a new challenge, and yes, there are painful parts and that pain, honestly, my, my go-to is humor. It is like I look at things and I laugh about them. I'm like, oh, dude, you do realize you said that out loud, right?

Like, okay, like that was the best that you had like. Make you a sandwich. Okay. Like, I'm hungry too. Do you wanna get me one? Or like, we both doing this, right? Like I just kind of put those things back because I expect them at this point and it's not actually enough to really get to me. It just shows how insecure other people are in having those things and the ability to look at some of those comments and use them strategically as kind of my tipping points or my armor, or my interview fodder is something that's made me very successful. I mean, I remember my favorite comment I got when I was gonna play against the guys was she's gonna get hit and die and or get pregnant.

And I remember bringing that into the interviews and I'm like, Hey, I know you guys want you. You want the gossip, right? Like you want the worst thing I've heard and I got it right. We don't even have to go through this. This one dude said this and I was one of the best linebackers in the world, but I didn't know it was possible to hit someone so hard.

You could cause immaculate conception and death. Yeah. And you know, all of the sudden the interviewers would laugh and we'd actually get to talk about something real as opposed to them trying to find that pain point in me because I already put it up front. Right. Yeah. I already know what you're gonna ask. I'm gonna diffuse the situation and I'm disarm you so I have the opportunity to charm you. 

[00:18:35] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. You're, you are owning that pain, for one of a better word, and turning what might, what others might see as a weakness into a weapon. That's a really cool flip that I'm sure not only physically we we can use in sport, but obviously mental, mentally and emotionally.

aprThe strengths that you each drew on in those times of tough, there's, there's one immediately that Jen, you've already shared of the, the mental judo to flip someone and be like, oh, you wanna come at me with that? Well, here. Boom. There you go. Didn't see that coming. Justine, what would you say are some of the character strengths that stood you in good stead to deal with the vague path really, that you both described, where it's like there was no one to follow before I couldn't make this up and so I have to either solve puzzles, which Jan has mentioned, or I have to just be bullheaded or I have to be super nice and like kind of weasel my way in. Like what was it for you that you look at and you see like that was the strength that I drew. He was, he was at a, a strength in application. 

[00:19:35] Justine Siegal: I would say my strength is that my resilience, I never gave up, so I asked the eighties for four years if I could come coach for them. Four years and every time I spoke to him, Hey, I just got my PhD. Hey, I went to outschool. Hey, I just did this. You know, just making myself more qualified over and over until I got there.

But there was also sort of a, in maybe an inner strength, when I first coached in 2009, I had a coach who told me how much he didn't want me on his field, how useless I was, so on and so on and so on. And I actually walked away and, you know, 'cause you can't cry in front of anyone. I hadn't had someone talk to me like that in such a short period with other people watching.

And I went out into my car and I drove down the street and I broke down for like two minutes. And then I decided that, you know, you can't control how other people act. You can only control how you are gonna respond. And so for me, I decided that when others were mean, I would be kind back. And so when, for example, the team kicked me outta locker room.

My daughter and I were making teen brownies and my daughter. Was like, why are we making 'em brownies? And they're like, because we're into physical act kindness. And it wasn't so that I could get them to like me. It was so that I can keep my own peace within because when you create anger inside you, it just creates chaos.

And chaos and anger can easily take you off your path. So I was very certain that I wanted to keep my peace and I was not gonna give up no matter what happened to me. And I was just gonna keep going. So that, that's how I really dealt with it. And interestingly enough, that gentleman who told me how much he didn't want me on his team actually recommended me for a job two years later.

[00:21:12] Paddy Steinfort: Hmm. Very cool. Very cool. Full circle moment. And I, I love the, you said anger creates chaos inside and it's a true for anyone who's actually been in a performance event and they're doing it out of anger. It makes it, it's a little more noisy. Right? It's, it can definitely help in a short term, it can propel me, but that, that shit normally doesn't last.

And I love how you flipped it to, I mean, almost really acting how we would want the players to act, right. Let's say a player gets hit by a pitch. Do you want him to go out there next time, super pissed, and you want him to be angry for the next week on the team bus, or do you want him to be able to wear the pitch and get on with his job?

And it strikes me that both of you are experts in acting how we would want others to act. Just an observation there. One of the concepts that as I've spoken with more people who are trailblazers or do stu stupid, super cool shit in different arenas, and that includes. Navy Seals, actors, comedians, heart surgeons, all this sort of stuff is that there's an, there's often a moment or a part of their world where it's what the academics might call an immersion event.

Where it's like once you are in, it's actually worse when you, if you go back before you complete the mission. Right. Think of a Navy Seal doing a drop zone surgery starting. I'm on stage and the lights come on. Like I can't be like, oh, another time out. I, I, I want, I want more time. No, no, no. You are in it now.

And Jen, you kind of mentioned it a little bit with your introduction to coaching where the coach signed for you and say, Hey, you can't back out now. Because what? What would that look like, Justine? Do you have a, an example of that where it was almost too late to turn back? Or has this just been such a slow burn for you that there wasn't one event you can point to and say like, this is when it was too late to go, like maybe your first BP on a big field, on a big league ballpark. Was that the moment for you? It was like, well, this is a big day. 

[00:23:04] Justine Siegal: I haven't had that moment, but I can certainly understand where in the military that would be. I felt like I just. My whole thing is building up, you know, like this whole life, this whole work, everything was a moment and I can't turn back, you know? It's just my whole soul's into it. 

[00:23:19] Paddy Steinfort: So you, so you're telling me the first time you threw BP at a big league spring training, there was no, there was no different than any other BP? 

[00:23:26] Justine Siegal: I prepared for it, you know, I did everything I could. I prepared mentally, I prepared physically, and I was ready for the challenge. So, yeah. Do I feel like I'm gonna throw up? Yeah, for sure. But you have a reset word. You take some breaths and breathing, and you take confidence in the preparation that you already had. 

[00:23:47] Paddy Steinfort: Very cool. Very cool. Already had the process lined up. Jen, what about you? I know you mentioned the, the coach threw you in the water and said you couldn't turn back.

You had to learn to swim. But beyond that, have there been moments, like for example, when you go from, it's one thing to have that job. At your first football team that you were playing on, so the people already kind of know you and you've got relationships, but then you get dragged to an NFL team and Bruce takes a chance on you and throws you into an NFL locker room. Like is that a different beast? 

[00:24:14] Jen Welter: For sure. It's a different beast for me. I think really being thrown in though and feeling that way was actually, I remember going. On the day that I was gonna play and make history with the Texas Revolution, right? And there's this huge narrative about it, right? And I'm feeling like, okay, right, this is a locker room.

I've been to the locker room a million times, right? Like, I mean, I've played for 14 years. Like I got this and I obviously will change in the same locker room with the guys, but I didn't really know what the situation was and I opened the door. There's this like fog wafting over the air. It was the dance room [00:25:00] and they were glittering each other.

So the whole world wants to know what's gonna happen when I get tackled by men and they're literally glittering each other. And I kind of remember being like.

I wasn't prepared for this. I'm prepared for football, but this is different. When, when the glitter settled, I looked around and it looked like Sephora had exploded. There were like curling irons and you know, makeup kits, and there were posters of the dancers on the wall, and I just kind of went.

I put my stuff down and I walked back out into the hallway so I could get some football, right? And I texted my coach and I was like, coach, can you please keep me? And I believe I said abreast because it was funny to me, abreast of the schedule as you have me stuck in glitter Siberia. And he comes out and he goes.

Glitter Siberia, huh? And I say, yeah, coach. And I want you to know when you get glittered, you already know that stuff gets on everything, everyone. And if they got me, I was totally gonna get you with a big bear hug and all the glitter off on you. And he laughed so hard. And it was like we both had this moment of like, this is something that we never really would've mentally pictured. And it's way too late now. Like Dorothy, you are not in Kansas anymore. And it was funny that I felt more at home with the guys right, than I did with the women at that point. And it really let me know how, what the dichotomy was, right? Even one of the women, like at this moment when they're glittering each other, goes like to another one.

She literally looks and she's like, listen. If you are gonna survive the game today, you must hairspray the crotch of your pantyhose 

[00:27:09] Paddy Steinfort: specific instructions. 

[00:27:11] Jen Welter: Right. And it was survival, which is what struck me so loudly, right? Like they're talking about surviving the game and it was apparently. Know, using the hairspray on your pantyhose prevents ripping. I don't know. This is not my area back's a tip.

[00:27:26] Paddy Steinfort: There's a tip for the listeners just so just who's gonna wear a panty? Yes. Get your pantyhose if you wanna keep them from ripping. 

[00:27:31] Jen Welter: It must be, but like it was so serious and it was survival. Right. And I just remember thinking in my head. I wonder if she had some extra hairspray, right?

Like if I just, you know, if I was gonna survive the game, if I could just put it all over me, if it might, might help me survive the game. And it was just such a weird reading of worlds, right? That it let me know, like the football was where I was home. Right, but this was a whole new world because I wasn't quite at home with them.

And then I was more like the guys and I was like, well, it's all happening now 'cause the world is watching to see what's gonna happen and if I'm going to be able to get back up. So you have to get there and get there really fast. 

[00:28:20] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, well, a, a fascinating example of the worlds that we, the world's between worlds almost, where once you leave one place and you're trying to get to another, you'll run into some funny characters in funny spots along the way.

[00:28:32] Jen Welter: Right. And just things that you never would've thought of or expected. Like that would never, I mean, you know, we had dancers, we always had, and I appreciate 'em. They put on a great show, you know, they would do what they do. But because I wasn't. Really, like there was no quite place for me anywhere, like having that crash courts in, in how they got ready for a game versus mine was just like. That's a really different pregame. That's a different routine. That's a different, yeah. 

[00:28:57] Paddy Steinfort: The image I have in my mind is, is when they make a Pixar movie about either of you two or both of you two, and the person leaves the world and they're in this weird place. But in those weird places, they actually also have the people who you don't expect can potentially help.

Like someone with some random hairspray advice or other people who, who become almost friends to the hero along the journey. And, and I wanna. Switch to that. So that's the best segue I could make. But can you, can either of you think of people who you didn't expect to be helpers along the way? Justine, I'll throw to you.

It could be the people who gave you your first job. We've had a couple of those names thrown out here. It could be someone in a random locker room who says, use hairspray in your pants. Or it could be someone else, Justine, was there one or two people? You look back and you're like, they're kind of my. Hero in a sense, not in the traditional sense.

A lot of people say, that's my hero. I wanna be like that person. I'm gonna follow their journey. You guys have both said you didn't have that, and so maybe the heroes are the people who were alongside you or behind you. Who would you identify as your heroes or helpers along the way? Justine? 

[00:30:00] Justine Siegal: Well, I mean, for me it was my daughter, right? Because you can go through anything and then you come home and you read a book, you know, and do butterfly kisses and, and everything's okay. So I always had my daughter on the field. I'd have the anchor outta school. I would do, we would do it together. It was a journey together. And so that was like so rewarding.

Yeah. You know, it, that we would always have this time. So I think that, you know, my father never asked me to play softball. I gotta give him credit. He never said, why are you doing this? And, and always helping me play baseball and, you know. I mean, eventually Billy Bean did allow me to come coach for the a's after the four years of asking and, and then my career was able to go from there.

I was the mental performance coach with Team Israel in the World Baseball Classic. But they were like, we know you can do this world, but we also know you can coach, so come coach as well. And that was with Jerry Weinstein just giving me a call. So for like once you know what, someone called me and said, Hey, I got an opportunity for you, instead of me finding a way in.

[00:30:58] Paddy Steinfort: That's cool. Jen, how about you? You've mentioned a couple of people who gave you a shot, but were there helpers along the way that that probably would otherwise go unnoticed in a brief skim of. Your story that's been reported so far? Anyone? 

[00:31:11] Jen Welter: Oh my gosh. So many helpers. Always pulling strength and inspiration from the women I played with.

I remember one of my teammates, Olivia Gral, at one point said, and you know, she was on a competing team, right? And we were on team USA together, but she was on another team. And you know, there was a lot of people who were not so happy that it was me, right? Like, you know, because they wanna do it or somebody's in the limelight.

And I remember OG said. Welter, I'm so glad it's you because you represent us so well. Right? And it was so simple, but yet like just something I could take with me. Like, okay, all right, not everybody feels that way. Right? So it was like a little bit of fortification. If you heard somebody else pushing back, oh, I was it her, I could have done better, whatever.

And then, Anthony Stone, who was my team, USA defensive corner, actually I should say Anthony Stone and John Kki. They were my team, USA 2010 coaches. And they put together one of the best teams to ever play the game. And both of them would always like check in, what did I need? You know, coach Stone does all of my girls camps with me, but they actually.

Those two and I put together the coaching staff for the Australian Women's National team, and it was their idea that I should be the head coach. And they said, you know, those women need you. We've got your back. And I was like, well, you guys are more experienced than I am. And you know, and they said, yeah, but we know that you'll let us actually do our jobs and that we can work together really well, Welter, and we don't have to do the politics stuff 'cause we're not good at that.

And I was like, now that is true. Now you guys should absolutely not because they were a little bit bull, you know, even more than I am bull in a China shop. So we did it together kind of as a team. And most people wouldn't expect that, right? That they would say, you should be the head coach because. Of all that you bring to the table.

And that was really cool. And then Clinton Solomon, who played with me on the revolution was integral. 'cause he said, you know, from day one, he was a former Chicago bear, said, this is gonna be tough on you physically and mentally. And he's like, I want you to know, even if nobody doesn't, nobody else has it.

Like, I got your back and I need you to be ice cold. No matter what happens. Don't you let any of those guys see it? Right? He is like, don't do it, but if something bothers you, you come and tell me and let me handle it because I can send the message in the way it needs to be sent. And what he really meant was like if it was me fighting battles, I would have one after the other, after the other being an outsider.

And yet if he did it as the leader of the team, which he was, he could say it's not us versus her. It's us with her and it's us versus the other teams. And I didn't know what to think when he first said that, right? Like I was kind of like, oh, you're gonna be my champion, right? Like, I don't need a champion.

I'm gonna give that a strong maybe, right? Like, I don't know you. What does that mean? And in so many situations, he just set like stepped up and wouldn't let me kind of be pushed aside. Or be pushed against, right? Like he was a backup quarterback. And he'd say, she's my running back, right? If I have to play quarterback, which I don't wanna play, she's gonna get her reps here.

Right? Like, and I'm gonna make sure that happened. And just to speak up in so many of those ways and to not just nod your head when somebody's like, oh, no, girls should be out here. Just the way he moved really made it special. And I, I called him the other day and just thanked him, right? Like, I was just thinking about him.

I was like, well, I want you to know like how much I appreciate. How you were and, and how much you did. And he said, don't thank me. He said, you made every single one of us on that team better men. He is like, you [00:35:15] changed all of us. He is like, I still have people ask me, wasn't that the team that had a girl?

And he is like, I always have to tell them it's not a girl. The girl because you were the one who could make that change with who could do that with us. So I've had some really cool people along the way. Yeah, and definitely not the ones that you would, you would expect. 

[00:35:38] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned you used the word champion there and you both shared examples of sort of people who were either champions for you in positions or in moments of potential, you know, could go either way.

But you've also shared example, there's almost a dichotomy because there's, on one hand, you want people who are around you who are gonna support you and make space for you and back you up and stand in front of you occasionally to make sure that you don't cop the shit that they, that you don't need to cop.

But on the other hand, each of you shared experiences where you were like, yeah, and I was just on my own and I had to do it. And like the, these people weren't, I just had to keep going. And so, if you were gonna give advice to people out there who are listening, who are trying to be trailblazers, whether they are trying to be the first women in an area, a group, or a room that is not normally accepting, could be boardroom, could be entertainment, wherever it might be, or whether they, it's got nothing to do with gender, and maybe it's a race thing or a sexuality thing, or any of the other areas where minorities or people are held out because of who they are.

Would your advice be to find a place where people are gonna support you or in the place that you're at now? Just make it happen. 

[00:36:49] Justine Siegal: For me, I would say find the place you wanna go. Don't let others dictate where you're going or where you wanna be. But I would say find those who are your champions? They're someone in there.

There's someone where you can either turn them or you know, they're already there. I just. I wouldn't give anyone an excuse to get rid of me. I think that doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's baseball or football, wherever you are, I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna stay here, and you can't make me go away and I'm gonna do a great job, and you're gonna eventually see that. We're gonna be better together as a team. 

[00:37:20] Paddy Steinfort: Very cool. I like the fact you said you, there'll be someone in there, you can turn them. It's, it's amazing how, how often you see people, you know, each, each of us. Let's take away the gender experience that you two have had that, that I haven't been able to share.

But we've all been psychologists in a room, which occasionally creates its own little dichotomy of like, oh, that per, I don't wanna talk to that person because they'll get in my head. And the ability to eventually find someone who's like, oh, actually this is actually pretty good. I'm gonna be with you.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand and talk about it and do all that sort of stuff. It is funny how there's always a few in the crowd. They may not speak up, but there's a few who are on your side. Jen, what about you? In answer to that question, do you persevere in an environment that doesn't want or accept or is tough?

Or do you like and, and I'm saying like this boardroom versus that boardroom, this stage versus that stage. Or you go to another place that is. Right. For your growth. 

[00:38:14] Jen Welter: One of the things that's, that I think is really important is to be consistent in who you are. Right? Those who know me, know me, which means if you, if we're gonna talk about a job or building a staff or, you know, consulting for a company or what it is, like those who want me on it are going to get me as I'm, which means me as all of me. Right. 

And those who don't, it's because they maybe don't want that. And, and that's something that's hard. But it, it's also important to know, because, you know, I've had situations in terms of coaching where it was like, oh, okay, well stay in your lane. I'm like, well, well is my lane. Well, you know, it is just linebackers.

And I'm like, oh, okay. So I shouldn't help that guy right there who just had a breakdown. And yet I've had other staffs who kind of, like Justine said, when I think it was Israel, was that right? Yeah. That, that they said, you know, you have this and have this, and that's awesome. Right? Like when Brad Childress hired me for the Atlanta Legends, not only was I a defensive coach, but he was talking to me about how we frame the team, how we build the team, and.

You know, we would talk about the guys that we were getting in and how to best position it so that they could be successful, and he would talk to me about those things because he loved that. I had that insight as somebody with a psychology background. And those are two different situations, right? Other one was like, no, like this is all you do.

Like here, take this tape. And none of the other stuff matters. And so I think it's really important to be clear in who you are, what you bring to the table. And when you do that, like consistently those people who wanna bring you into the equation or wanna hire you are gonna know the full you. Like, yes, you have this and we need this.

And oh, by the way, it's really amazing that you have this. Bruce Arians was also really big about that. He was fascinated with the fact that I had a PhD in psychology that made more difference to him than what I had done as a player because he believed you should be able to read a guy's eyes. That's a big thing for him.

And so. I think really matching up who you are, what you have to offer, and being able to fully bring that to the table is important. 

[00:40:39] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, really, really good nuanced, intelligent answer from what I would expect from two PhDs. We're gonna start to wind it up here, but I've got a couple of questions I don't want to leave on the table, and particularly with reference to the people who listen to this show.

So obviously there's a, a fair cohort of military, but there are plenty of people in the wider public who listen as well, and so everyone's facing their challenges for people who are facing a similar challenge. I just asked for a specific example of like, if you're facing that, would you stay or go? But just in general for people who are applying this sort of stuff in their own battles against not being accepted or trying to chase something that they're like, this is who I am and it's what I'm here to do.

The world doesn't seem to wanna let me do it just yet. What would your advice be? Simple takeaway that people can go and do? That's like a, Hey, I went and did this, or you know, Justine, you had your BP prep routine is, I got myself ready. I had this thing. Jen, you mentioned being able to flip something on someone and make it, make light of it.

What would be a simple, simple, let's use, let's tap any of your PhDs, your psychology, your study, like what would be one piece of advice from a psych point of view to help people steal their mind and continue on that journey? I'll ask you first 

[00:41:48] Jen Welter: For everybody listening, who's a service member. Thank you for your service. My dad is a legit army hero. A silver star and two bronze stars from Vietnam as a medic. So, so much of who I am and how I look at the world is through his eyes. And he often says I'm a chip off the block because he was a terrible soldier, but a great warrior that definitely has permeated my career. Not always a great soldier, but definitely leading through that spirit of battle, right?

And doing what needed to be done, even though it wasn't pretty. And some of his medals were in that. And to take that with you, I always say have a theme song, right? Like have a theme song and like be able to play it because your mind can only hold one thought at a time. And we've all walked into a place in a space where we were having a really bad day and then that song came on and you can't help but like, and they, no. 

[00:42:50] Paddy Steinfort: For everyone who's listening and not seeing it, Jen is doing a little boogie on the screen right now. Right. But to what? To whatever that song is. What is that song for you? Just outta curiosity. 

[00:42:58] Jen Welter: You know, I personally like to play, I'm the Man by Ali Black because it definitely helps, but there are many, you know, and as athletes, we do that in our pre-game warmup, right?

We have like our pre-game listen, and I think it's really important for people to have that too. So have a song that gets you in the right place and space for whatever you have to do. And that's. Definitely one of my cheat codes for life. Very cool. Very cool. Justine, how about you? 

[00:43:23] Justine Siegal: Practically speaking? Go get overqualified.

Okay. So be the hardest worker. Also, you know, if you're the hardest worker and you're doing great work, then you're building that paved that path that you can succeed. I would have to. Start by just saying, I'm a very average person. All right? I got a learning disability, but I have a PhD. There's like, I'm not very tall.

I'm not very strong. There's nothing really fantastic about me, but I have what scouts call intangibles, right? We all have intangibles. Those things inside us. The grit, the when are you gonna give up, how much you love something, your passion, all of those things inside you is the magic that is you. That is where your success will come from.

You don't have to be a superstar. You don't have to be, you know, amazing. Just be you. And remember that you are the one who gets to decide when you quit, and if you keep going, then no one can stop you. And then just practically speaking, ask. If you want something, ask for it. And don't ask once. Keep asking.

Find your way over the brick wall. Even if you have to go around, if you've gotta break it, you gotta climb on top. If you want it, go for it and use those intangibles to get there. 

[00:44:34] Paddy Steinfort: Very cool. Very, very, very cool. So I had to say this later in the show, just in case other previous guests are listening, but this is close to my favorite episode of all time. I'm feeling inspired listening to both of you. 

[00:44:45] Jen Welter: I'm  competitive. I wanna be the best episode of all time. Like, have you not realize the competitive people you have on this call right now? 

[00:44:51] Paddy Steinfort: There's one more question.

[00:44:51] Jen Welter: So second. I mean, I just had to throw that out there. Like, I don't wanna be close to the top. We wanna be the best one. 

[00:44:58] Paddy Steinfort: We've got a two minute drill. We're gonna run here. Now Jen, this is when the game gets decided. So here it is, given like. You could take this. Either way it's like it's, it's either the Meghan Markle quote of when women are uplifted, the entire community is, or it's the picture of Amanda Gorman dressed in her yellow jacket and the red hairpiece.

And the red mask and looking amazing on stage. And then a three-year-old girl dressed just like hers, like someone to look up to. What is it that you hope for beyond today and beyond your own journey that this work. Your PhD, but also your trailblazing in each of your fields. What is it that you hope for the future?

[00:45:41] Justine Siegal: You know, it's an honor to make history, but it's so much more important to build a better future. And so I've started a nonprofit called Baseball for All to Grow Opportunities to Girls in the Game. Whether that's playing, coaching or leading, I'm also trailblazing that path for more women to be coaches.

And as you've seen now, women are getting hired all over the place. So that's it. To be a better world where one day you and I are not talking about trailblazing, it's just the norm. 

[00:46:09] Paddy Steinfort: Right? I, I know that in cricket back in Australia right now, there is a little hullabaloo, fewer, it'll fade away, unfortunately. But one of the female cricketers who I think they just won the Women's World Cup. She said it'd be, oh no, sorry, the Women's Big Bash League is what they call it, as opposed to what they call the Men's Big Bash League, which is just the Big Bash league, and she was like, it'll be great if one day you can just call this the Big Bash league and we don't have to put women's on the front of it.

I think that was what you're referring to there. Justine. Jen, how about you? For sure. Hope for the future. 

[00:46:39] Jen Welter: I think we're in it right now. The doors continue to open that hearts and minds. See what good it can be. When you have more diversity, that it is actually a strategic advantage, that it's not an initiative or that it's this outside of the box thing.

Right. I know, you know, I have my first Gridiron girl who came through my camp, or actually I have several, but I have Gridiron girls now that are in the very first NAIA Girls Collegiate Varsity flag football season, right? Like that didn't even exist before. So for the first time in football, girls can change the trajectory of their life through the game, through the education, and those girls are playing younger than I ever did and having opportunities that I never even imagined.

And one of the girls, Jada, who's a quarterback at St. Thomas, when asked, she said, you know, she wasn't asked who her football hero was. She was asked what woman made her feel that way? And you know, she said me because it made her believe bigger. And I think that's what a first is good for. It, it puts that, that permission or that seed of a dream in earlier.

So like Justine said, you can outwork people, you can go to the clinics, you can get the tools. You can really become a student of the game so that you know, you're not saying girls versus boys, you're saying best on best. 

[00:48:25] Paddy Steinfort: I mean, I was struck as you described, the steps there, both of you, as you've described, your whole journey, that particularly as you mentioned there at the end, Jen, the impact that it has about being a strategic advantage as opposed to just like an initiative, it's an advantage.

And I know that one of my colleagues in the NBA who was, we were talking about the Rooney Rule in the NFL, which is a rule designed in apparently to increase. Minority hires for coaches, which is a, a nice way of saying they want less white people as just purely a white coaching staff. And it hasn't really worked because in my colleague's opinion, who is also African American, he looks at it as, it's because people are doing it because it looks good.

Or in some in rare cases. 'cause it feels good, not just because it's good and it's the right thing to do. And after listening to both of you speak, I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be as inspired as I am. Congrats Jen. You win. But it is a, a fantastic journey that you both shared and, and are still on, and the, the difference that you're making.

Not only in your sport but in the world is one to be celebrated. So thank you very much. We appreciate your time. For those who do wanna follow up and potentially follow you, ju Justine, you mentioned your not-for-profit, so I'll just reiterate that's baseball for all and if people wanna find it, I assume the they just Google Baseball for all and they'll find it or they'll find you on Twitter.

Jen, you are, you are similar. You run coaching clinics for kids and you also have a couple of books. Can you share a little more detail about those? 

[00:49:58] Jen Welter: So play big lessons in being limitless from the first woman to coach in the NFL. You can get that on amazon, barnes noble com, et cetera, et cetera. It's a good read journey and very practical advice that hopefully you can take into your own life.

I created and co-created and authored a series called Critter Fitter, which uses critters to get kids bitter through motion and emotion. And there are four books in that series so far, and you can also get them on Amazon. Cool. 

[00:50:25] Paddy Steinfort: And the, and the, uh, camps is is Grid Iron Girls, right? Grid iron girls, 

[00:50:29] Jen Welter: Yes. Because you know, I coached in Australia and that's what football is over there. 

[00:50:33] Paddy Steinfort: I love it. That's my last question. This is actually what, what will win you or lose you to the event? Are Australian girls tougher than America? Girls? 

[00:50:40] Jen Welter: Different toughness. 

[00:50:41] Paddy Steinfort: Oh, good. Good answer. What? 

[00:50:42] Jen Welter: Different toughness, but digging that show the fundamentals of rugby, which I still credit my football success to my rugby roots.

I was a prop, believe it or not. Wow. Yes. How are. At five two. Wow. Yeah, so I was half the size of everybody I went up against, but I learned I could literally tackle everybody and didn't need pads and a helmet to do it. And that definitely played out throughout my whole career. Now I say I just tackle everything.

[00:51:09] Paddy Steinfort: Very good. Well, you've tackled. Not only the obstacles in your way, but life. Both of you have,] Justine, I couldn't use a baseball analogy there. I think tackling is a, is a much more apt thing for what you've both done on your journeys. Thanks so much for blazing the trail, for continuing to do it, and for joining the show today, Jen Weleter and Justine Siegal.

[00:51:27] Paddy Steinfort: Thanks guys. 

[00:51:28] Jen Welter: Thanks for having us.