From Cirque du Soleil to Cricket: Mental Tactics for High-Stakes Leadership

 

What do circus artists and elite sports coaches have in common?

More than you think.

In this episode, Paddy is joined by Véronique Richard—mental performance coach at Cirque du Soleil—and Darren Holder, who led elite coaching for Cricket Australia. Together, they unpack what it really takes to stay calm, adaptable, and authentic when the pressure peaks.

You’ll hear surprising insights from clowns, cricket coaches, and circus artists performing 400+ shows a year—all of whom have mastered the mental game at the highest level.

But the big question?

How can business leaders channel those same skills without an audience watching?

 

Connect with Darren:

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenholder/

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/_coachingbetter

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_coachingbetter/

Connect with Véronique:

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/v%C3%A9ronique-richard-5a25177b/

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/verorichard03

Follow me for more:

🌐 Website: www.toughness.com

📸 Instagram: @paddysgram

💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort

✖️ X (Twitter): @paddysx

 

 

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Darren Holder: The coaches that create an environment of trust really early are the ones that can start to build something special. 

[00:00:06] Véronique Richard: Authenticity and stepping on stage with your true self is one of the most important thing to connect with the audience. 

[00:00:14] Darren Holder: If we want athletes to perform under pressure, then we need to show that we can do that ourselves.

[00:00:18] Darren Holder: As coaches and instructors, 

[00:00:19] Véronique Richard: I think you need to be authentic in who you are, so the way you're being, and you need to be adaptable in what you're doing. 

[00:00:32] Paddy Steinfort: So welcome to the Toughness podcast. My name's Paddy Steinford, your host, and we've got a couple of guests today on this episode who are gonna make for a fascinating conversation, particularly around the ability to be adaptable and creative under pressure. The first guest is Véronique Rashad from Cirque du Soleil, primarily as a mental performance coach.

[00:00:54] Paddy Steinfort: Véro, welcome. 

[00:00:56] Véronique Richard: Thank you. Honored to be here. 

[00:00:58] Paddy Steinfort: Ah, it's great to have you here. Can you tell us a little bit more about, so I met you the first time when you were working particularly with Cirque du Soleil. I know that you've branched out a little more with that, but can you tell us a bit more about the work that you do with performers?

[00:01:12] Véronique Richard: Yeah, so at Circque we have different way to operate with artists. So there's one side of my job, which is providing individual one-on-one meeting with artists that either might go through a tough time or just want to optimize their performance. Sometimes when the newcomers are coming into circus, they need a little bit of guidance, and they might be a little bit stressed out to be on one of the biggest sort stage in the world. So I do a lot of one-on-one, and recently we've just launched a program which make me go on tour with the different shows. So I was spending a few days, so usually five days on show to really prevent problem from happening. So I was mainly doing workshop with artists on topics that were really relevant to their reality.

After a few years working with them, I have a few topics that I knew was relevant and then we organized this most of the time with performance medicine. So I was really working hand in hand with what we call at Cirque PMed. So they are the physio usually working with the artist. So yeah, that, that's a little bit of the work that I'm doing with Cirque.

[00:02:25] Paddy Steinfort: Awesome stuff. We'll dig back into those. You said there's a few common themes and, and classes that you do. We'll circle back to that, but I, I wanna dig into one of the things you mentioned there was newcomers, which I was quite surprised and I'm sure the listeners will be surprised. Some of the new artists as they're referred to in Cirque du Soleil because it is an art and a performance on stage. They do some pretty amazing shit though, and it turns out that some of them have a background that you wouldn't expect that, that there's some transfer over from people like X Games competitors. Can you tell us a bit more about that? 

[00:02:57] Véronique Richard: Yeah, well, circus has expanded a lot. His recruitment, if I can say so. The casting is becoming more and more large since some of our show now are really having different type of arts. I don't know if you've heard about the new show in Vegas Run, which there was some motorcycles, BMX. Like there's a lot of different artists and we have a huge amount of our artists that are coming from sports.

So of course the obvious gymnastic trampoline diving, but sometimes they come from other sports as well. So when they arrive, they don't necessarily have any artistic background, it's not because you were a male gymnastic, you had any like performance on stage experience. When I was doing my internship in 2011, there was this program where everyone that wanted to be part of circus, any artist had to go through a 10 weeks development program where they were receiving. Yes, artistic training, acrobatic training, but also mental performance, nutrition, strength, and conditioning. Unfortunately, since 2013, this program was abandoned, but now we are trying to bring back this type of mentality with different program that bring. Athlete or different performers into circus to teach them, which we call most of the time, PPP, and so to teach them what it is to be an artist because it's not only about the acrobatic or the like movement performance, it's also about the presence on stage and the artistic side of things.

[00:04:31] Paddy Steinfort: Right. Super interesting how second guest is a friend of mine from back in Australia, Darren Holder, you'll hear me refer to him as Stubby throughout the show. That's his nickname. Stubby, welcome aboard. Thanks buddy. Great to be here, mate, and appreciate the opportunity. No, I think both of you, even though there's very different backgrounds there, it's gonna make for a fascinating conversation.

Darren, for a number of years, more than half a decade, was head of Elite Coaching with Cricket Australia. For those of you from America who have not much idea what that is, it's basically the rest of the world's baseball. It is a very intense schedule, more than anything similar to baseball, though the game itself is relatively slow paced with some bursts of activity, but the touring is brutal and there's a lot of work behind the scenes to help people get through some of that grind, in particular, getting through it and also learning and getting better at the same time. And stubby. Can you tell us a little more about what your work was like there? With the coaches in particular? 

[00:05:30] Darren Holder: Yeah. For those that do wanna have a little bit of a snippet, there is an opportunity, I guess, with no support on it at the moment that there's a docuseries on Amazon. I dunno if we can plug that here, Paddy, but call The Test, which kind of details in little episodes, a lot of a journey that the new coach, the current coach, Justin Langer, when he took over the realms of that team, where they'd sort of bottomed out for a little bit, but now they've just returned to being number one in test cricket.

They play three formats and T 20 Cricket. So I guess my role slightly different, working with the coaches to help them understand better how they can build mental skills in for the players and so how they integrate their staff. So my job's been effectively helping coaches get better over the last five six, but even in even best part of two decades, really the work that I've done across cricket and other sports, but specifically in cricket, working with Justin to prepare him to take on that role and all the other coaches to rise the tide of how we understand , not just the Xs and Os, but how we relate to the individuals within the team, how we build teams, how we build culture, and certainly how we teach all the other skills outside the technical tactical stuff. We wanna make sure that we can integrate with the SNCs and make sure that they're physically ready, but mentally, as you said, it's a grind.

Playing for five days in a row where you may not get a result at the end of those five days can be very testing. Or for some players where they walk out in the middle and face one delivery, so one pitch and then they're outta there. So there's certainly lots of failure like there is in baseball and the ebbs and flows and coaches' ability to deal with the players individually about that is paramount.

[00:07:06] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, and, and you mentioned there that the differences obviously between working with a frontline performer, someone who's actually on the stage, and that's the person that people pay to come and see, do their thing in these arenas. But the coaches are performers themselves in some ways, and they're under just as much pressure.

I asked this of a lot of the guests. Is there a moment or a, an an example or an analogy you can share of what I call the sweaty palms moment? The six or seven second gap where it's like this is a big high stakes moment for that performer. And I'm asking specifically about the coaches. What would be their sweaty palms moment as a coach in professional international cricket?

[00:07:43] Darren Holder: I think  they have many of them because of the way that the game fluctuates and the momentum swings. But I guess the one that. Would arise regularly and more consistently will be that moment where they know they've done all the work. But it's a game in which is different to many sports that people in North America would experience that the coach can't intervene tactically once the game starts.

So their sweaty palms are probably there consistently throughout the day, but just before the start of play when they walk across the rope, as we call it, to the players, into the field, and the captain is now in charge. So it's about have we done everything possible to prepare ourselves for what we're about to encounter, but also for our opposition. So I, I guess that most of the head coaches particularly, will find that moment, like, oh, you know, have we done everything in our powers to prepare everyone for every situation that might present in the next little bit. 

[00:08:36] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, a great example and, and probably something that a lot of leaders in many different industries would, would feel as their charges go into battle depending on the arena. Obviously Véro, is there an example that you can think of? You got a bit of time there after I ask Stubby that to think about your answer. What would be the sweaty palms moment for a Cirque du Soleil performer? I'm sure there's many, given that there's huge trapeze acts, bicycles spinning around and all sorts of things. What would you say is a, is a a great example that you've seen of that kind of a moment? 

[00:09:08] Véronique Richard: Well, that's interesting because with the new project I was talking to you about, I get to spend a lot of time backstage with them. So there's a lot of informal discussion going on, and this is a question that I like to ask them because let's take a clown. The clown is not necessarily a dangerous discipline, right? They won't hurt themself. But the clown in circus are often the main character. They are the one kind of linking everything together and they repeat the same thing night after night, most of the time, twice a night. And I ask them like, isn't it like becoming redundant?

And are you still having those sweaty palms that you're talking about? And all of them, they are telling me. When you step like the, the few second right before to step on stage, there's always this rush. Which they describe differently. It's not the same experience for everyone, but as much as they can make like 400 shows a year, they will still get this moment right before to enter on stage where there's like this little activation of the system.

And this is from most of them, what they're telling me would make them enjoy this and also perform well and give all they have to the audience because compared to sports which you perform in front of an audience in circus, you perform for the audience. So you really have to create this connection and the audience will never be the same, which means that you need to offer your best every single time. So yeah, I would say maybe the few second before to step on stage is definitely something that I hear often from them. 

[00:10:49] Paddy Steinfort: Right. And that's interesting to note that both of them, even though they're very different types of performers, it's that pre like, just before we jump, right? 

[00:10:56] Véronique Richard: Yeah. 

[00:10:57] Paddy Steinfort: And it's, it's often the type of folks that, that we will work with as mental performance coaches.I've worked across some, a variety of sports and there are other industries in life where the same thing happens that some groups, some research groups called the mission critical teams or operators where. If they're, it's a very tough thing. They're trying to do very hard exercise. There's big risk involved or big reward either way.

So there's a lot lined up, high stakes, but also it's a constrained time. Like you don't have a chance to back out and wait like it has to happen now. Mm-hmm. And that's really what creates, like you said, Véro, that rush that a lot of people in the WHO work in that industry and who performers or work around it, that's kind of what's what they're addicted to.

Let me change T for a little bit and. Rather than just focus on that sweaty palms moment, take back to a 30 view. Within the circus and with your work with those performers, what would you say toughness is? What does toughness look like in the circus? 

[00:11:56] Véronique Richard: It's a really interesting question. You know, it could look like so many things because there's so many. At first, yes, the variety of the discipline and circus is really broad. But also the cultural background. We have really, really many different countries represented at Cirquw, and I think that makes a difference in your perception of what it is. To be tough for the Russian, for instance, will be really different than for US Canadian, which we are a little bit more, what some people like call Soft, which I disagree, but some people would say that. So one thing that I observe, I can I pick two? Two? Um, 

[00:12:37] Paddy Steinfort: yeah. Oh sure. Three 

[00:12:37] Véronique Richard: factors. 

[00:12:38] Paddy Steinfort: They're your crowd. You do what you want. 

[00:12:40] Véronique Richard: So, of course adaptability. Those that really can adapt to any situation from their really short term situations. Something happened on stage and like in circus, something that people might not know is that the music is live. So the musician, for instance, if one artist fall down,] they need to make the track. The musical track again, because that means it will take time for the artist to stand up and sometimes the artist will decide to do the tricks again because this is the big trick and they wanna show the audience. So there's this huge adaptability going on.

Like the one of the thing I love the most when I go on show it's to go on this like the, how do we call them? The. Musical director, the one that is really in charge. It's not the name they give them, but it will come back to me, and you go in their boots, like in their little spot, wherever they are. It's different on each show. And then you see how like they call everything. They call everything for the musician and everything is live and they have to adapt. If someone, if the musician is not fully attentive. He will miss the call. And if you miss the call, then the music is totally mixed up and then the artist will notice it.

I've seen the last show I, no, the show before. I don't remember the band lead. This is what I was searching for. So the band lead made a mistake on the previous show and just like the amount, like the whole pause in between the two shows, she was just reviewing like. What did I do wrong? Why didn't I see that? And then she was going through in her head, and there's a really nice. Team spirit in circus. So the, the artists that were on stage when she made that mistake, they came to her and they like, they just worked together into adapting to the next show. So there's beautiful thing happening, but definitely adaptability is one.

[00:14:32] Paddy Steinfort: That was one. What's two? Yeah, 

[00:14:34] Véronique Richard: the other one I read recently, something in the literature, which explain like to me a lot of things and it's like. How much, especially those that are in high risk discipline, so those that could lose their life doing what they do. We think that it's for the rush of adrenaline that they will tend to kind of get involved in those activity.

But I saw a research recently which said. A lot of them, it's for the emotional regulation. So you know, you get the rush, you get the, like the feeling of being a little out of control, but this capacity to regulate your emotion and feel in control, although you are facing a really dangerous situation is a reason why people like high risk activity.

And when I think back at so many comments that artists are like telling me such as, I like when I feel like the adrenal level coming, but just focusing on my breath and really feeling connected with my Aerus, a lot of them, like the object they are working with is really connected with them. So that makes sense. So emotional regulation, and it's not just to suppress your emotion, it's to use the emotion to perform at your best. And this is what I would say, artists do the best. They really use any emotion that can come their way, but they use them in a functional way and not in a dysfunctional way..

So this regulation, and maybe regulation is not right as a word because it seems to be like you should suppress or you should control, but it's more embracing the emotional experience and being really able to perform your best with the emotion. So I think those would be my. Two answer. 

[00:16:26] Paddy Steinfort: Cool. Two very good ones. And you're, you made an interesting point there at the end that it's not all about suppression. I wanted to highlight that it's actually about sometimes channeling, knowing that the emotion's there and still doing what you need to do. So that's..

[00:16:37] Véronique Richard: yeah, really true. A lot of our goes go through really tough time and this is the moment when sometimes they perform the best because they can bring something more on stage to share with the audience.

[00:16:48] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. Stubby, your work with the coaches is a little less about developing their toughness, but in line with, well, sorry, what would traditionally be referred to as toughest, but particularly in line with the first point Véro just made around toughness actually being in part flexibility and adaptability.

Your ability to, to change based on the conditions and whatever's in front of you. How much does adaptability come into being a good coach? Well, particularly taking someone like you just mentioned, Justin Langer, the head coach of Australia, and being able to take them from a player who played and was successful and they're now a coach and they're probably coaching the way that they were coached.

They're leading the way they saw leaders lead and so that's what they think is right. How much of your work is helping to expand their mind and, and make them flexible. In different coaching and leadership approaches? 

[00:17:37] Darren Holder: Yeah, that's a great question. I really like the analogy that Véro used around what I would consider the, the conductor. You know, that you're trying to provide them with this opportunity to lead and all the PE members of the band, whichever their role be in a cricket team or a football team, they know those with some real clarity and be able to perform them. So I think when you. Through around the toughness piece, I was thinking about] their ability to just be the calm and consider and be consistent with their response as opposed to being reactive.

So I think responding to the stimulus as opposed to reacting is a really key factor. So there's flexibility, but it's a flexibility in that they've taken in all those stimulus and tried to kind of level out the emotions that probably the performers are experiencing a bit more that Véro referred to. So the coach is a bit of a thermostat, you know, try and.

Keep things level, but they also need to be authentic. So that's, that's the one thing that young coaches really struggle with. Paddy, is being someone that they were in a previous part of their life, maybe as a player, or trying to be that coach that they had, you know, so whether it be in a football code, whether it be cricket or any other domain, I think we have a range of coaches through our sporting careers, but then we need to still be you. And so finding themselves is part of the role that I play for them. And I've seen some tremendous growth in coaches where they've really invested in that part to try and get to know themselves, and then they find that that really opens the door to them being able to connect more strongly with the people around them. And then guess what? It takes care of itself from there, you know, the Xs and os start to fall into place and, and the strategies and the missions or the performances take care of themselves. 

[00:19:17] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. A great example, like I, I was struck as you said, that the, the authenticity, which I didn't expect to come up, but when you think about it, a lot of the time when we're, particularly when we're in front of people, we're trying to perform this is as leaders, as coaches, as actual performers. Like one of the hardest things to do is just to be yourself. Because you put up a shield, you're trying to maintain the mask, but also do the job. And I was on a call, a zoom call, funnily enough, in this day and age with a major league baseball team coordinator and coaching staff earlier this week actually, and they've just had the major league draft.

They're gonna get some new players in. They're not gonna be able to meet with them like they normally do. Just ship 'em all down to Florida and have a camp with them. They're gonna meet them probably like this one. The biggest points that we, we ended up bringing up was that. Authenticity is probably one of the most underutilized but powerful weapons for leaders.

And it's pretty tough to do, you know, so for all those reasons I just listed, but the benefits are clear. There's a lot of research that shows you get more spontaneity and more energy from your followers. If you lead with authenticity, you get, people will give you longer attention spans if you're just acting like yourself ,people will probably, uh, commit to whatever you're asking them to do for longer as well. So you get more, what they call discretionary effort. People will go the extra yard and all of those are, it's supposedly because I don't have to think whether you are bullshitting me or not, I don't have to have part of my brain set aside to do the filter of like, is he saying this for me or this?

'Cause he wants to look like he's tough once, they don't have to filter. People are allowed. They're, they're able to be themselves. Because it sets an example, and then they can fully engage in the task as well. So a really interesting [point you raised, which I wasn't expecting, but it is super important and is super tough for leaders as well. Tell us a little more on your side of the fence, Véro, or what are they? I guess there's no fence in circus, right? I guess on your side of the stage, backstage, front of the curtain, whatever it is. 

[00:21:16] Véronique Richard: Oh, there's everything is possible in circus. So there could be somewhere.

[00:21:20] Paddy Steinfort: On your side of the fence with the circus performers when you are talking to them about being able to be in the moment. So you, you mentioned a little bit around being adaptable. You also mentioned their ability to have the emotion and not try and run away from it, maybe deal with it or just channel it. When you're trying to help them sit there, how much does authenticity come into that for them? Like their ability to not try and play a certain role or be a certain person they're expected to be?

[00:21:49] Véronique Richard: It's quite ironic, right? Because, okay. Funny story. I guess this is part of what we are doing now. When I meet them in the afternoon, they are. What I will call normal person, like they're not makeup or anything, they don't have their costume. So one of the last show I did, we had a really good conversation with one of the artists during the afternoon that was really cool. And at night he is dressed up in a frog. So literally his whole face is green with those yellow eyes and or those little dots. And he is wearing this thing that prevent me from seeing his hair and then he is talking to me. But. I should have recognized the voice. But you know, there, it's a really big crew.

There's a hundred people on, on that crew. And I meet a lot of people and then I'm like, oh, that's really cool. Where are you from? And then he looked at me and he was like, what do you mean? We talked like for 30 minutes. This, this afternoon. I, I told you that. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I, I just did not recognize you. Right. And then he started laughing and he was like, in any other circumstances I would've been a, a little offended, but now I kind of understand. So all this to say that it's ironic because none of those artists are playing their own self when they step on stage. They are always costume and always like playing a character that doesn't belong to who they are necessarily yet.

They will always tell me that authenticity and stepping on stage with your true self is one of the most important thing to connect with the audience. Again, I will come back on CL with clowns, but I had a like maybe one of the most amazing discussion with a clown recently, and for him there's kind of this triangle, which is like one side of the triangle. It's him like the real. Him in real life. Then there's his clown, and then there's kind of this other character that lie in between. And this is the connection with the audience. And like artists, this is what I love working with artists. They need to think about those things. They need to dig deeper into themself and figure out a way to bring their true self on stage.

So like you were just talking. Your example about a coach that is authentic will catch attention longer and maybe like the attention, because you won't say, is he like fooling me or anything like that? Well, with artists, it's super important that I. The minute, the second they step on stage, they need to have all the eyes on them. And to do this, there's no other choice than finding your true self and the authentic to yourself. And that's why it was really good when they were coming to Montreal, all of them before to go. On like a show because it allowed the professional at circus to develop this capacity in them. Not that they cannot do it by experience, but for sure it's, it's maybe better if you have a little bit of support before to step on stage and you need to be more naked than you think to step on stage and really connect with the audience. And this is what makes a difference between the best artists and those that are performers. I will say. Like there's a difference and you can see it on stage. 

[00:25:10] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. I would say that my karaoke skills would, would show that out. Real performers are able to do it. I just, I just pretend when I'm doing that, I'm interested stubby that because a lot of the population that you work with around you, you now consult as a coach, development expert in many sports, but often the sporting environment is not one where people are prone to think and dig deeper about themselves.

Right. They like Véro, you said you're blessed to work with performers who. Almost have a need, a want to explore themselves more and find that expression. And you know, that triangle is a great, a great metaphor, a great model. I'm hard pressed to think of maybe 25% of the athletes or coaches that I might have worked with in sport who would be even close to doing that themselves, let alone willing for me to push 'em there.

[00:25:56] Paddy Steinfort: How do you find that so important?

[00:25:58] Véronique Richard: They should all do this, but that's sure is a great word. 

[00:26:00] Paddy Steinfort:. What's your experience with that in, in pro sport? 

[00:26:05] Darren Holder: Yeah, no, I totally agree. It's funny, isn't it, like we have the performers at Véro is talking about the artists who are really looking for themselves so that they can be their character. Yet athletes and coaches to a a certain extent, are trying to create a character so they can be someone that they're not. So it's in many ways and, and you see that, and I think the best ones, those that are experienced and have had some success and, and have built. Expertise over time. They are themselves, the Belichick, the Popovichs, and certainly in, in that part of the world.

And then you look down in our part of the world, the people like Craig Bellamy and Wayne Bennett, even though they're very different personalities, they know who they are and they're able to be themselves a hundred percent of the time. And that's what it takes. So I was listening to Véro and, and when you pose that question, Paddy, I think it's all about believability, right?

So you, the players have a BS filter. They know if the coach is talk at rubbish and not being who they are, they're the best knows for bullshit in the business. Exactly. So, you know, the performers, the people, they're trying to convince the audience so they, they have to be true right from the start, because if the audience doesn't believe it, you're not selling the show. Whereas in our sporting environments, I think the coach needs to be, and belief is about that trust piece, right? So if we talk about, you know, Kobe's model of trust, it's about character and competence and they need to show they know what they're on. They know their stuff. But they are also genuine and authentic in the way that they build that belief in others.

So I think those two pieces are really critical. So the tr the, the coaches that create an environment of trust really early are the ones that can start to build something special. And players, I guess, are part of that process that, so those that are able to let their guard down and be themselves are certainly gonna have so much more growth possible, whether it be on the field, but certainly off the field, and being able to lead and to do other things post their sporting careers.

[00:27:56] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, we've talked ourselves into a twist here. Let me reflect two things that all of us have said that don't seem to gel at first glance. So we're, so we're all agreeing that toughness is in significant ways about adaptability. Your ability, ability to deal with shit, change, adapt, move, shift, whatever. And then at the same time we're saying, you know, it's really tough as a leader to just be yourself. Don't change. Right. So we're saying, so toughness is being able to change and toughness is being able to not change any. Either of you can take this one. How do you solve that? Like tell, tell me how that's wrong. 

[00:28:32] Véronique Richard: I see a difference between being and doing. I think you need it to be authentic in who you are, so the way you're being, and you need to be adaptable in what you're doing. If that makes any sense. So I think there's just a big difference here in the or, the how and the what if you want, like how you are and you project yourself is different than what you will do. And the what needs to be adaptable, the how and your [] true self, the way you are, the being that's on you. And that can be quite stable if it's you and if it's who you are. It's my take on this, but make it.

[00:29:10] Paddy Steinfort: I like, I like the quick, it sounds like you've said that before, but I, I don't know if we've had that discussion being able to say the difference between the being different between being and doing. I, I like that simple delineation. Stubb, you got anything to add there? 

[00:29:23] Darren Holder: I think that's a, a really good way of putting it. Yeah. I I It's about the response, right? So you still gotta be you, but respond in a way which. Is trying to solve the problem in being flexible in what, what that solution might look like. 

[00:29:38] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Right. So it's flexible about solutions. 

[00:29:42] Darren Holder: Correct. Right. It's not being fixed on, this is the outcome because this is what we've always done. No, no, no. I've actually gotta be me here and taking in all the stimulus, but then respond in a way which is going to benefit the situation.

[00:29:52] Paddy Steinfort: Right. Or as you know, this is gonna disappoint fans of Star Wars and the Mandalorian, but saying this is the way, every time is not always the right way. Perhaps adaptability could help him sometimes. Sorry, if you're gonna put your hand up there, if you're ready. You don't like my analogy from Star Wars or? 

[00:30:09] Véronique Richard: I was just, no, I was just going to say that actually Stuby and I kind of test this quite often with coaches, so we've developed this like movement improvisation and maybe stubby wanna talk a little bit more about why we brought coaches to do this. But this is kind of a lab, I won't say the whole word because it won't sound super well. 

[00:30:31] Paddy Steinfort: A laboratory. 

[00:30:32] Véronique Richard: Yeah. This word won't, it won't make it 

[00:30:34] Paddy Steinfort: Say it. Say it in your, in your accent. Yeah, there you go. That's much better than my stupid accent. Go ahead. 

[00:30:42] Véronique Richard: All the words that are quite similar, it's the toughest to pronounce whatever. So we've tested this approach where we totally ask coaches to be fully vulnerable in activities that are just. Totally silly. I use movement a lot to make people move in crazy ways. 

[00:31:01] Paddy Steinfort: Um, and I just wanna catch, you just wanna catch there, you said a word that, that with the accent people may not have heard. You want people to be fully vulnerable, right? Yeah. That, that's what you were saying. Yeah. 

[00:31:10] Véronique Richard: Yeah. Sorry if that was not clear, but Yeah, exactly. And we've came up with this project and now it's. Been a few time that we are doing it and I think the doing and the being is really interesting in this because the doing, we ask them to be super a adaptable so they move in different situations that are a little childish or like going back to really silly type of activity. But if they are not true to themself, they have a lot of trouble going through the activity and they feel so uncomfortable until the moment, which is my favorite moment in life actually. And I'm not joking. When a person decide to let go and to just be who they are, stop caring about what others think.

Stop caring about am I looking okay or not? Am I doing okay or not? It's like not important in those activity. They just need to be who they are and to do spontaneously whatever they are asked for. And maybe stub you can jump in there because you've been a, a big witness of those activities and you've seen coaches evolve, I would say from it, not necessarily because of it.

[00:32:23] Darren Holder: Well, I'll probably back the truck up a bit, Paddy. Tell a little bit of the story of how it evolved. I think that's really important because it's definitely about performing under pressure, right? And that's what we're all your listeners are having to do. And Véro and I were lucky enough to cross paths, and I was fascinated with, I guess what Red Bull. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. 

[00:32:47] Véronique Richard: Yeah. Paddy, you actually introduce us to each other, so. We crossed paths because of you. 

[00:32:53] Paddy Steinfort: I did something right. In the last 10 years, I've done at least one thing, right? 

[00:32:58] Darren Holder: Yeah, so I mean, I was fascinated by the way that Red Bull with their athletes provided environments where they were trying to take them totally out of the domains that they were experts in and put them in other situations which were going to either scare the shit out of them or actually force them into uncomfortable situations where they had to respond and.

I wasn't as interested in that from a athlete perspective or a performer or an operator perspective, but certainly from the instructor. How do we create that for [them? Because for me it's all about modeling. It's about modeling. And if we want our athletes to perform under pressure, then we need to show that we can do that ourselves as as coaches and instructors.

So the opportunity presented and I, I remember. Calling Véro and she was doing a postdoc, I think in at Florida State University and saying, do you wanna come to India? And she's probably thinking, what is this guy from Australia who I don't even know what cricket is? And 

[00:33:55] Véronique Richard: no. Yeah. And that's the thing, do you wanna come to India to coach, to work with cricket coaches? I'm like. What, I don't even know what cricket is actually. 

[00:34:05] Darren Holder: So it was a bit of a test case, let's say a pilot. I had a captive audience in 30 male Indian coaches and, and it was a chance for us to try some of this stuff out and literally blew them away, but also well and truly, I, I was confident that we, having had the conversations we'd had about the research and.

The intention that Véro was gonna present with the movement improvisation activities, that we'd have a really good success, but it certainly exceeded all those expectations. And then as a result, we've not only built it into all of the learning programs, when I have had cricket coaches as a cohort and mixed sport coaches that come to the US and we immerse ourselves in that surf de display environment for a day or so. But also, Véro has been to Australia now on a number of occasions and we've done tours around creativity and building that capacity for players and coaches alike. So I think that's kind of the connection and probably what will create a little bit of interest with your listeners.

[00:35:02] Paddy Steinfort: So, so I want to, I want to highlight a couple of things here for listeners. We may not go into all the detail, but we're talking about something called movement improvisation, right? You can Google that. There'll be plenty of it. Look up Véro's name. We'll put some links under the episode. Right. Okay. 

[00:35:15] Véronique Richard: Maybe not.

[00:35:17] Paddy Steinfort: The second part was that something you mentioned there, stubby was modeling and you're not talking about being on a catwalk in Paris. You are talking about acting the way that you want the people you're working with to act, setting an example. 

[00:35:30] Darren Holder: Right. It's a true skill for coaches to be able to model the behaviors that they espouse and they put on the wall, right? So we, we've got values based organizations in sport all over the world, and the military have those, and all organizations now have their standard three or four values that they are really standing by. But what's more important than the values on the wall is how we behave on a day-to-day basis. So coaches need to be able to model those things.

[00:35:58] Darren Holder: And if we wanna be able to, I wouldn't. Say, be safe in an environment, but be more secure because we're always gonna be taking risk in the places that we work. In sport, there's always gonna be risk, but we wanna encourage risk taking, but be supported in that risk taking and then rewarded for taking the risk, even if it doesn't come off at times, but be in, being spontaneous and taking ourselves to those areas where we don't know the answer, but if we don't try, we'll never know.

So the modeling of that from a coach perspective is critical. So we wanted to one. Put them in an environment where they were supported by Véronique myself to be secure and not gonna injure themselves, but also they're gonna be very challenged. So mentally, cognitively, but also physically in some of the movements that she's asking them to perform.

So that was kind of the, the baseline or the foundation to then take that into a sporting environment. And we're very fortunate earlier this year on a trip to Australia, when Renee came down to have. Some of the coaches that were on a previous trip to America had experienced that they were able to transfer it into their, their club environment.

Now I'm talking about Australian Rules football club here. Now all their coaches, all their performance staff, all the people in supporting athletes were part of a group that went through these activities as were every single one of their, their players. And then the next day we did some education around that process and took it out onto the training field and to then see the coaches spontaneously without our provocation during the session stand up and model the behavior. So not to do anything that wasn't natural to their football environment, but to do something which was inspired by the day before out on the training track was actually seeing it in action. And the players can feel that freedom to say, you know what, I've got my back and I can actually do this as well because the coaches are modeling the things that they believe in and we stand for.

[00:37:53] Paddy Steinfort: Very cool. I think they, they will park that there, 'cause I, I do want. It's worth listeners looking into and googling and finding a bit more out about. But a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast are not professional athletes or coaches and are not circus performers. I think I'll be very interested if the population was mostly circus performers, but they do do hard shit and this is, you know, some people in the military obviously we're talking about there, but this could be anyone in everyday life trying to deal with deadlines at work, trying to deal with a presentation that could win on the promotion, trying to deal with a conversation in a relationship that could save or finish it all. Humans have to deal with situations that are tough, that have pressure attached. And so I'm curious with what you're talking about there.

There were two things you mentioned. One was with the authenticity part of, okay, we get in front of a crowd and we're trying to be more ourselves and less the character in the circus. And then the other way. We get in front of a crowd and we're trying to be less ourselves and more the character, like either way, they're still in front of a crowd and their whole performance is almost an interaction or a, or a, or a presentation for the crowd.

When, when I'm sitting at home with a computer and I have this deadline, or I'm just me and the boss talking, or if it's a girl who's going for her final exam, like there are ano so many more situations in human life where there's not an audience. And so some of the stuff you're talking about there, tell me how that vulnerability and the improvisation, adaptability, like what about for the person who doesn't have anyone watching them, how, how can they incorporate that and help them improve [ their toughness, their ability to handle pressure when it's not about a crowd?

[00:39:35] Véronique Richard: I feel you are always in front of the most important audience in your life and it's in front of yourself. And if you cannot be like. True to yourself. When you're alone, you will not be when you're like in front of an audience. And this vulnerability, which was it more clear this time? 

[00:39:53] Paddy Steinfort: Much better.

[00:39:57] Véronique Richard: Perfect. Yay. I feel you can practice this on a daily basis and. The foundation of what I'm doing, it's pretty much bringing people out of their comfort zone, and we have multiple different comfort zone, right? Maybe you are super comfortable at work with your colleagues and that's good, but when you go out in a pub and you're not with your colleague anymore, now you're becoming super uncomfortable.

[00:40:26] Véronique Richard: Or maybe. You're uncomfortable when you are. You are comfortable when you are with friend, but when you are at work. So basically we all have our zone of comfort, and one thing that people could ask themself at any moment in life is, what am I avoiding? Not because I'm not skilled enough to do it, but because it makes me uncomfortable.

If you can just slowly start setting your environment in a way that it will force you to progressively not like if there's something that makes you uncomfortable, you don't have to go all out like tomorrow, but like progressively. Kind of enter in contact with this discomfort. Slowly, you are expanding your comfort zone, and if you are having a bigger comfort zone, then you are not only becoming more adaptable, but you can be more of yourself in multiple situation because you're comfortable enough to act as yourself.

So this is a simple question, but every single person that I've asked this question to kind of have this like moment of, oh, and it can be ridiculous thing like myself, I've noticed, like raising my hand in a class when there's an expert speaking, that will make my heart like beat increase. So when I was doing my master, I decided to slowly raise my hand more often.

And then in bigger group, in conferences, in big conferences. So then I'm not saying that my heartbeat is not increasing anymore, but I can do it like I can do it and be myself when I am facing those stressful, which might sound super trivial for your audience, but we all have those little stressful fist week.

[00:42:21] Paddy Steinfort: Stressed by different things for sure. I think it's a great question. I wanna ask you. It's almost like inoculation, right? What you're saying is by doing bit by bit, I'm slowly getting my body used to that reaction. Let me ask you though, you said my comfort zone's expanding right now. That could be one, or it could just be, I'm still not comfortable, but I'm able to do shit with it. Right? Which one is it? 

[00:42:43] Véronique Richard: It's really interesting and you know, I think it's both. Some will just become more tolerant to discomfort, which I feel movement and improv is about that being like more comfortable. I don't think at any point you really actually tolerating discomfort more than becoming comfortable, but sometimes just by trying something, you realize that it wasn't your head.

It's a catastrophe scenario that you were creating for yourself. And once. You try this thing, then you don't have this catastrophe scenario anymore. So therefore you expand your comfort zone because now you are comfortable and, and we all have like hundreds of example of situation that we were avoiding, but once we step in, we're like, oh, this is actually fun. Yes, it's actually fun. 

[00:43:30] Paddy Steinfort: well, what if it's not fun though? Like, I've got a pile of washing over there that I have been avoiding. I, I assume you're not talking about that sort of stuff. We'll get to in particular, more so than the performers. They are performers we've said, but the coaches don't perform in front of the crowd as often, or, or if they do, their crowd is really the, the locker room. Right. Maybe the boardroom sometimes when they're trying to save their, their job, but let's use them as an example perhaps of. It's less about who you are performing for and do you agree with what Véro said? That the audience is [00:44:00] actually yourself? Yeah. 

[00:44:01] Darren Holder: And, and, and the media are probably a big Oh yeah, of course. Player in that market as well, you know, for head coaches, particularly when they've gotta get to the media. But managing up and the stakeholders around management, board CEOs and, and also then yeah, winning the meeting like. Being able to provide the right information to the players at the right time is, is crucial. But I really like that description that that Véro provided because I think it really digs into what it looks like from a comfortable position and you're trying to make sure that they get some more reps, right?

So whether it be emotional skill or emotional response or a mental response. So whether we're thinking it or whether we're feeling it, actually need to get reps that doing it. So I think from a coach's perspective, it's just about setting up like they did athletes. If they were athletes, prior routine ritual that follow the process of how they're going to prepare for the meeting, if it's a meeting or a press conference, and then get in there and continue to go through that process and, and make sure that it's about the messages that you want to get across. Not necessarily having to respond to media all the time and, and, and give them what they want and make sure it's about how you wanna portray the day's play or, or, or the performance.

[00:45:15] Paddy Steinfort: That was just. Very cool advice from both of you. Appreciate that. We're gonna wrap it up here with a question that I often ask people, because sometimes more often than not, we have a little hero sitting on our shoulder or in the back of our minds that we don't even know. Is there. But our beliefs are shaped a lot by the people that we admire or who who taught us along the way.

And sometimes they have a saying that's that they put it better than us. Right. And I'll use an example from my childhood, particularly in reference to what we're talking about here, of not worrying what people think. I. And my mum was adamant that that was the devil's work and you needed to just be yourself.

She came, no, no nonsense woman from the country, town in Victoria grew up on a farm and anytime I wanted, you know, that pair of Jordans or those re rock pumps, or I want that shirt that everyone else has, it costs 80 bucks. For some reason, she would turn to me and say, it's not a fashion parade, Paddy. It doesn't matter what you're wearing, and I hated it at the time and probably reflects in my choice of fashion nowadays, but it really summed up her beliefs and her values around not worrying what people think, that it's more important to be you and do what you do.

For each of you, for either of you, is there a hero that you think of in your journey to this point? Whether it's from, as a psychology student, somehow ending up in the circus and then in India working with cricket coaches, or whether it's a young fellow growing up in Australia. Watching cricket, growing up with it, and then ending up moving to the highest point of it. Is there someone along the way you think of and you're like, yeah, they were a great example of this and here's how they put it. 

[00:46:48] Darren Holder: I think the experiences that I've had, Paddy, you know, living in different parts of the world, living in India and the Caribbean as well as Australia and the cricketing world, but then now working with sports coaches across, there are just so many that you try and pull pieces from one of those coaches and I'm sharing a story sort of third hand because one of the coaches, he was the, the Team Australia baseball coach for a period of time. He's an American, he grew up in Chicago, but a very close friend of mine, and I know when he was a rookie coach in baseball in America. So it might resonate with your viewers.

He was finishing a clinic and, and he ran over to a well-known Hall of Fame coach, Jim Leyland, who coached the Detroit Tigers at one point and said, Mr. Leland, Mr. Leland, can I ask you some advice? I'm, you know, really keen to get better at this craft of being a baseball coach. And he said, young man, you're not coaching baseballers, you're coaching people in baseball uniforms.

And for me, I've always remembered that. And I think it's sort of helped to understand that as I continue to work with coaches. It's not their status as a player, whether they be a great cricketer or footballer who are now going into that coaching realm. It's about teaching them to engage with the person first and that we're trying to make better people first.

And I, I guess coaching has developed so much in the last decade that many more of the new generation of coach understands that. But I think. Even those great successes that operate in North American sport, the Belichick and the pop bitches that we've mentioned before, they understand that players don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

So being about the person, first and foremost is critical because it opens the door to having a great relationship and connection that can help you to push 'em harder and be the best person that they can be. 

[00:48:33] Paddy Steinfort: I love that. And if you were to convert it to, you know, that applies to so many different realms. If you're a leader in the military, you're not leading a soldier. You're leading a human in soldier's uniform. If you are a leader at in a band, you're not necessarily leading a musician. You are leading a human who happens to play music. It's really a great, great analogy. I like that one. Vera, you got anything to top that?

[00:48:55] Véronique Richard: No, absolutely not. And you, that would be much better than I to answer this question. Okay. You know, I have always trouble with that question for two main reasons. I. First, because if I was going to name all the people that have a HU that had or have a huge impact in my life, like the list would be so long because I feel grateful full for so many of those, whether it is artists, coaches, professors that just guided me in my journey. And the other reason why I'm really, really bad to answer this question, it's because I will illustrate this really simply. I did not recognize Paul McCartney by talking to him for five minutes. So I have a huge problem with names and like kind of having those superstar that I have no clue who they are in life.

So my hero are those people that. I encounter and that I'm pushing to get out of their comfort zone that are resisting at the beginning and that are giving me the look, those rolling eyes or those avoiding behavior or whatever. But that one day they decide to dive in and to give it a chance. And when I'm giving conference, I will always talk about those people.

I never name their name, but for all of those that. Are willing enough to just take that leap of fate and try something new, try something different. I've seen people crying in my movement, improv, but for the best and. I always have them with me because they are guiding what I'm doing and I know that even though it's only maybe one or two people, a group that really, really gets something out of it, I just feel it worth it for those people that were a little bit stuck inside before and that this maybe could have helped them to get out of their shell. So those are my people. 

[00:50:54] Darren Holder: That's good. I'm a little disappointed, Paddy. I'm a little disappointed that I didn't get a mention, you know, giving Véro all these opportunities to all the coaches, but I wasn't one of the heroes. 

[00:51:02] Paddy Steinfort: You would be the hero. Hey, maybe she'll say it when we get off air, but it's definitely, it's gonna be the next beer is on you then Véro, if you've, if you've let stubby down like that.

I think it's a great way to end the episode though, because it's a really a, a perfect way to sum up and a very important part of toughness is it's just. A chance, taking a leap and, and diving into something that might be uncomfortable. Usually, most of the good things that happen in our life. End up happening 'cause we did something that was a little bit tough to start it off.

So great way to end it Véro. And you do always a beer for that though. So thanks. I wanna say thanks very much to both of you. 

[00:51:34] Véronique Richard: I'll, I'll, I'll give you a beer, I'll pay you a beer next time we see each other and we'll be, 

[00:51:38] Paddy Steinfort: I appreciate you both for your time. Thank you very much. And hopefully, and sorry. And also if listeners did wanna look up some of that movement improv stuff, is there a place you would recommend Véro, or do I just say google movement improv. 

[00:51:50] Véronique Richard: To be honest, don't even Google it because it's still something that we are building. Just find me on LinkedIn, find me on Twitter, and shoot me an email and I, I can then send you all the information about movement improv and what Darren and I have been doing over the last three years will be more than a pleasure to answer the question and provide you more information on that.

[00:52:13] Paddy Steinfort: Cool and, and likewise for you, Stubby or Darren as Véro just called you for people who are, who are looking to get in touch with Darren Holder. 

[00:52:20] Darren Holder: Um, probably the loose thing mate coaching better is the coaching consultancy that you referred to earlier and it's certainly working across sport, both in Australia but also internationally to support practice and performance of elite sport coaches, but also instructors in other areas of performance domains.

[00:52:36] Paddy Steinfort: Cool. Thank you very much guys. Appreciate you being on. Thanks mate. 

[00:52:39] Véronique Richard: Thank you. It was a real pleasure.