SECRET WEAPON That Helps Teams Win NO MATTER the Players

The most talented team doesn’t always win.

And Jon Gordon can prove it.

He’s been inside Super Bowl locker rooms and billion-dollar boardrooms. He’s worked with the Rams, Clemson, the Dodgers, and dozens of elite companies.

The common thread?

The winners had trust.
They had belief.
They had purpose.

Even when they didn’t have the best talent.

In this episode, we break down what actually separates champions from contenders.

What we covered:

• Why connection builds real toughness
• How “devotion” beats motivation every time
• A drill that caused grown men to cry… then win
• The real cost of ignoring trust

If you want your team to win, this one is worth a watch.

Connect with Jon:
🌐 Website: https://www.instagram.com/jongordon11/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jongordonenergy/
✖️ X (Twitter): https://x.com/jongordon11
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jongordon11/
📚 Book: https://jongordon.com/books/

Follow Paddy for more:
🌐 Website: www.toughness.com
📸 Instagram: @paddysgram
💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort
✖️ X (Twitter): @Paddys_posts

 TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Jon Gordon: I believe toughness is not about talking tough. It's about doing the right thing in difficult moments. There's so much of our success in life is that we just keep running. We stay positive and we never give up.What you believe determines what you create, and that is truth. Do I have it today? Is this the day I don't have it?

It's that mindset. It's that little fear that gives you a little bit more edge, gives you a little bit of preparation to really say, okay, I've gotta be ready, I gotta be prepared. I gotta take this on. 

[00:00:40] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the Toughness Podcast. My name's Paddy Steinfort, your host. Today we have a special guest who, for me, holds a special place in my memory because he was one of the first public speakers I ever saw live in the United States when I moved over. Jon Gordon is a bestselling author, one of the top public speakers on the topics of leadership, culture, and teamwork.

Renowned throughout sports and the world of commerce for being an inspirational, motivational resource, but also on point with his knowledge of resource. And also, not to mention that you've written a, let's say, 12 bestsellers. I don't even know. Well, welcome to the show, Jon Gordon. 

[00:01:14] Jon Gordon: Hey Paddy. Thanks for having me. And I still remember meeting you when I was there to speak to the Philadelphia Eagles, and you came up and said hello to me. 

[00:01:21] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, exactly. I was blown away. I mean, everyone in the room was blown away by your talk that day. That was my first. It may have been like the second or third day of my first real job in the United States.

So the memories are pretty strong. But I do remember vividly the guys being like, I'd presented to him for a couple of days beforehand and they were engaged and then you were up there and it was a whole nother level and I'm like, wow, hey, firstly, I gotta learn from this guy. Secondly, he is, I love what he's saying.

So, had to come up and say hi and, and it's great to, to still be in touch this far down the line. Since then, you have gone on, I mean, even at that point you were fairly accomplished as an author. I'd read a couple of your books. Since then, I think you've gone on and published another three or four bestsellers.How many books in total are you the author of?

[00:02:04] Jon Gordon: I've written 22 books, eight bestsellers, four of those 22 children's books. Actually, we love to teach kids these messages as well, helping them stay positive, learn mental toughness, and learn how to deal with their challenges as well. So yeah, it's been a great journey.

I have one called The Garden and then one with my wife called Relationship Grit, and this is about sticking together through the ups and downs of a relationship. It really goes back to to my past when I was negative and miserable and my wife almost left me because I was so miserable and unhappy. But that's what began this journey.

I was someone that. I had lost my way and I was not very positive. And she said, if you don't change, we're over. So I had to change. I wanted to stay married. So I agreed to change and began this journey of working on becoming a more positive person. And this was during the emerging field of positive psychology.

Years ago, it was just getting started and I started to practice some of these ideas. I started to do some of my own ideas. Listening about stress and gratitude. You can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. So I started taking a thank you walk every day. And while I was walking, I would say what I'm thankful for.

And doing that I was flooding my brain and body with these positive emotions that ab, that uplift me. Rather than the stress hormones that's slowly draining, kill me. So doing that over time, and now we're talking 15, 16 years I've been doing this, it's amazing how I've seen it changes your mindset. It molds and shapes you in a positive way.

So I hardly have any bad days anymore. I have a few here and there, but for the most part. I have fed myself with positivity. I have restructured, rewired my mind and my brain, and now I'm able to take on the challenges with more resilience and, and grid and optimism and belief and faith and hope. So I'm actually my own, um, my own little laboratory that I'm trying on stuff on myself all these years.So I, I know it works. 

[00:04:00] Paddy Steinfort: You're the Tim Ferris of Positive Psychology. Perhaps you, you take everything and try it yourself before you preach it. And I think that was one of the things that stood out to me. I had actually, the reason I was in Philadelphia with the Eagles in the first place was because I went to the University of Pennsylvania to study positive psychology where it all began, and I knew of the research and I had kind of dove into it, but it almost seeped outta your pause.

Like you could tell that you lived what you talked about, and it's a, I want to go back into that journey because you are a great example of the fact that change is possible. You mentioned a little bit yourself of where that started from, and I imagine. Like with what you do now, public speaking, what, what's the biggest crowd you've spoken to at once in person?

Probably 10,000 people. 10,000 people? Right. And, and it looks like, you know, I'm sure there's more involved going on behind the scenes, but it looks like you don't break a sweat. But I'm sure that wasn't the case 30 years ago. When, when, I don't know. What, what were you doing 30 years ago before you were a public speaker? You were of what? 

[00:04:57] Jon Gordon: Well, 30 years ago I was 19, so I was actually playing lacrosse at Cornell University as a division one lacrosse player, which is where I learned about sports and learned about culture and teamwork, and had this incredible experience to actually, to live it, to, to learn from it, to see what, what failed because what caused us to fail because we did not have a great team. 

We were not united, we were not connected. Years later, I would learn what makes a great team. But you know, when I'm speaking to these large groups, whether it's 10,000, 5,000, 2000, I actually am nervous. I go back to my performance days in terms of playing a sport like you feel like it's game day, and there's always that question in the back of your mind.

Do I have it today? Is this the day I don't have it? But I think it's that mindset, it's that little fear that gives you a little bit more edge, gives you a little bit of preparation to really say, okay, I've gotta be ready, I gotta be prepared, I gotta take this on. So there's an element of, of fear, but I think that little bit of fear pushes you in a, in a good way.

We know it's the bad fear that we don't wanna have the one that paralyzes us, the one that causes us to fear messing up to be. Attacked in the place of our identity that if we don't perform well, we're not enough. We're not valued, we're not recognized. You don't want that kind of fear, but the way you put replace that kind of fear is with love.

Because if you love it, you won't fear it. Love casts out fear. I believe it's the greatest performance strategy of all is to focus on unloving it. And the minute you get back to loving it, loving the competition, loving the opportunity, loving your life, loving your craft, fear dissipates so you're not worried about the outcome, worried about nothing. 

You are just so focused in the moment of just loving what you're doing and that's when you're at your best. And for me as a speaker, it's the same thing. If I focus on the audience, loving them, loving this opportunity, fear dissipates and then I give them a, a talk with power, with great tips and strategies and with the love that helps have an impact on them.

Yeah. From your heart, I was gonna, I was saying before, like you can see the energy, it seeps outta you. There is an energy about it and the way explains where some of that comes from. One of the questions that we ask all the guests on this show is their definition of toughness. You know when, when it first crystallized for them, of that's what this is, to be able to get through tough shit.

[00:07:24] Paddy Steinfort: Now, you talked about dealing with fear there and a very eloquent way of saying if you go to love goes away. You would describe toughness. What is it to you?

[00:07:33] Jon Gordon: My dad was a New York City police officer, undercover narcotics. He was shot a few times. He really is one of the toughest guys you'll ever meet. I  mean, really tough.

He instilled toughness in me, and I believe toughness is not about talking tough, it's about doing the right thing in difficult moments. I believe that is being tough. I believe it's overcoming adversity and challenges when there's a lot of pain when you don't want to move forward, when you want to give up and you don't.

To me that is being tough. It's about getting hit. Not giving up. Yes, you get knocked down, but you get back up and keep moving forward. So to me, that's what toughness is. There's an element of grit in my mind when I think of grit, I have a formula for grit that I've come up with. And I believe toughness is a big part of grit.

[00:08:27] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, and this is very similar across number of people. This is Olympic athletes. It could be major league baseball players, coaches in the NFL public speakers who are also bestselling authors. Generally there's some version of even when it feels shit or even when it's really tough, you still act the right way.

It's much more about action and commitment than it is about how you talk or how you look or whether you hang on. It's really about action and that really aligns well what a lot of other people are saying.

[00:08:56] Jon Gordon: And you know what's interesting? Tough doesn't mean that you put on this protective armor that shields you from being real.

I really believe that when you're vulnerable, you actually enhance your toughness. I've worked with a lot of sports teams. I do an exercise hero, hardship highlight. So who's your, who's your hero? Talk about a hardship that you face that made you who you are today, and then a highlight in your life. And as each person does that, the walls of pride and ego and selfishness come crumbling down, and that paves the way for authenticity and vulnerability, meaningful relationships, strong connections amongst the team.

I have found that that actually makes the team tougher. So being tough doesn't mean that you're not real. Being tough doesn't mean that you don't share what's on your heart and who you are. Being tough doesn't mean you don't cry. You might cry and you can still be very tough. It just means that you, you feel.

You don't allow those feelings to hold you back. You don't allow those feelings to keep you down. You don't allow those feelings to take you down the spiral staircase of despair and depression. You elevate yourself. You lift yourself up, you move forward in a positive way with a vision and a purpose, and the grit and the optimism and the relationships that allow you to be successful.

So to me, we are tougher together. And so when you have a team that comes together and is connected to each other and then committed to each other, then you truly get team grit. You get team toughness when you have that. And those kind of exercises actually really build and bond a team together. And so I work with a lot of teams and I'll ask 'em how connected they are and right away I can tell just based on that, how committed they will be'cause you'll never have commitment without connection. 

So the more connected you are the more committed you'll be, the grittier you'll be as a team. Grit. Yeah. And so when I wrote with the book with my wife Relationship Grit, that's why we stayed together because we had team grit. We were connected, committed, forged through the fire of conflict.

A lot of conflict. My wife's Irish Catholic, we, she just doubles up on the fighting. We've had a lot of conflict and a lot of challenges, but through it all. Of that bond and being authentic and real, and listening to each other back and forth and not condemning one another. We grew together. Yeah, and I think that's the danger for any team.

So toughness can take on many forms and uh, you know, my dad died and again, toughest guy on the planet to see him die. You realize that no matter tough, you are in this world, in this life, you're not gonna live forever. 

[00:11:31] Paddy Steinfort: It all ends the same way for all of us, right? Yes. I mean, different modes, but we all end up dead. I think it's fascinating to be able to talk to you on these different levels, because most of the time I'm either talking to. A world class performer who is like, they're very good at their own toughness. Or it could be a coach who's very good at, you know, relationship building or it could be a CEO or a community leader who's about culture.

You've straddled all three of these, what I would call levels of toughness or levels of leadership. And, and you mentioned a couple of things there at each level, right? And we'll, we'll, we'll break them down a little bit, but you touched also on that in my pre-show notes that I sent to all the guests.

There is, I'm trying to find what point it's, it might be fifth or sixth down the track. It's like, Hey, at some point we're gonna talk about hero hardship or highlight. So I will admit that I have stolen that exercise from you. But that's 'cause I love it so much and because it does exactly what you said, it does force vulnerability, not in a crude way, but when people open up like that, all of a sudden we're getting deeper, there's better connection and it becomes safer to talk about really hard things.

Which is what high performing teams have to do. Can you tell us where you discovered that verse? I know you work a lot with Clemson and Dabo Swinney, and they have an exercise. Is that where you learned it? You gave it to them. Tell us the story. 

[00:12:46] Jon Gordon: I gave it to them and Dabo took it and used it and called it the safe seat.

So he would have each player sit in this safe seat in this chair. Where was a safe place to be vulnerable and, and share your feelings and share your heart. And guys were just brought to tears. I mean, this was the year they won the national championship. These big, strong, tough guys, amazing guys just brought to tears as they shared their stories and we found out what they've been through, some of the challenges they've had in their lives.

And so Dabo used that called with the safety. But I got the idea from Cori Close. She's the head woman's basketball coach at UCLA. And Cori told me about this idea of, of the hero hardship on highlight, but you could add one more age to that. And it's. I think right now with what everyone's going through, that's a great thing to talk about.

What do you hope for as you look forward towards the future? So we can call it the four Hs, but it's been fun to watch you and others take it and use it again. I don't own it. Let's all use it. Let's all share it. Let's all get better because of it, and we know it helps the culture and it creates emotional and psychological safety.

You know, that's essential because once you have psychological safety, then you have trust, then you have greater commitment, and then unleashes the genius in the team project Aristotle. We know with Google, they did the study called Project Aristotle. They wanted to know where their best ideas came from, where their most inventive ideas, where their best teams came from.

They studied teams within Google and teams outside of Google, thousands of teams, and they found that their best ideas in their best teams did not come from the A-teams. It wasn't the ones with the most domain specific knowledge, the geniuses in the field, the rock stars, it actually came from the B teams.

And these B-teams had psychological emotional safety. They felt free to share ideas back and forth. They felt connected and committed, and as a result of that, they weren't worried about being ridiculed. And so that unleashed the genius. It wasn't the one genius. It was the genius in the team where everything came out of.

And we've seen that in sports. We know how a great team is not always the one with the best players. It's the one who actually plays the best together. We know in, in the military, those who are committed to each other and truly connected to each other, and they have that bond of trust. That's who will fight for each other to the death.

And those are the ones we admire. Those are the ones we see really do incredible things. The movie called The Outpost, and I just saw that movie and a good friend Daniel Rodriguez played in the movie but also was in the battle and these guys fought for each other. When you watch that movie and you know it was real life.

They fought for each other and that is just so powerful when you had that. So, so it really does come from. From doing things like that. And you have to be intentional because if you're not intentional, it doesn't happen. Mm-hmm. More now than ever. It doesn't happen. 'cause people are not wired to connect anymore.

So we've gotta actually force it. We gotta make sure that we're, we're finding ways to connect. You said earlier, having those hard conversations. Yes. That's the key right there. I mean, we have to have difficult conversations if we want to be a great team. Good friend of mine, Nick Nurse to Raptors head coach, won the NBA championship.

He put an elephant on his desk. In the beginning of the year, anytime one of the players came in, they saw the elephant on the desk. They knew they were gonna talk about the elephant in the room. No bitterness, no hidden issues, no agenda. We're gonna talk about the things that are holding us back so we can come together, heal, grow, and be our best.

And sure enough, they won. They won an NBA championship. They would've not have done that. If they did not deal with this stuff, I know behind the scenes can't talk about it, but if they didn't talk about these things and work them out, they wouldn't have been a strong team. So as a team, you have to have difficult conversations and, you know, you said it best.

I really have a great understanding because I get to work at the levels of leadership. I work at the cultural level, I work at the leadership level, but I also work at the team building level, but then I also work in the individual level. Understanding the mindset and the mental makeup that make makes us tough and makes us gritty, and I know all that research, so I'm able to work at all the different levels to see how they all fit together and what we need to do at each level to help build a great team.

[00:16:52] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, and the cool thing is you've seen, I mean, I appreciate you bringing up the raptors there. That game seven loss for us at the sixes is still sticking with me and if will forever. But you know, like you said, they built an amazing team and when you build that amazing team and culture, amazing thing happened.

The, you also mentioned that here of hardship, highlight hope, exercise, which I think I actually sent you the email of an article when the team that I used to play for back in Australia, the Richmond Tigers, so when I, when I was there, they were a basket case. They hadn't won for 30 odd years. I didn't change anything while I was playing there, but they managed to turn it around and break a 36 year drought and win the championship.

And this is in large part being credited to the culture that they've developed. And there was an article that came out about a proce facilitated process where they did in quote unquote force that environment. But it was through using those instances of getting in front of the group and when I saw it and it kind of came full circle, I was like, oh, that's really cool.

It's happened back from where I'm from. And that comes from a guy who I'm, who I would now call a colleague and a friend who started this all off back in halfway around the world. So isn't that cool? 

[00:18:04] Jon Gordon: It is really cool. And that's, but when you sent me that and then I heard from the reporter who wrote the article and then I was on a radio station in that area.

It was so cool 'cause they had used it and they said it really turn around their team 'cause they got vulnerable. These incredible athletes, these big strong guys, as you know, were sharing their stories, sharing their past, sharing their hardships, and they said from there there was a bond that was developed like they've never experienced before.

It was so cool to hear that from this team, and after 36 years, I believe it was 36 years out, they won. They won the championship. It's like the Cleveland Browns winning a championship now, right? If they were like that kind of team. They came together and won. So it was so cool. They read that and you win in the locker room first.

The book I wrote with Mike Smith, the former coach of the Atlanta Falcons, where we shared a lot of these tips and ideas to win in the locker room and build a great team. So yeah, that was, that was really cool to see. 

[00:18:55] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, to me it was multiple worlds colliding. It was the positive psychology, it was the team I used to play for.

An author who's worked I admired, and, and a speaker who's worked I admire. You mentioned earlier in the show, we're gonna jump around here so hopefully listeners can hang on. You mentioned earlier in the show the, the ability for an individual, you'd saying toughness is to feel something and still act the right way anyway.

Right? It's a common answer from a lot of people across different industries. You actually described your own personal, intimate journey, both with your wife and even just personally, like going from getting stuck in a negative place and over 15 years remodeling yourself. So now it's a default. It's a habit for you to think and act that way, and it sounds great, right?

But a lot of our listeners are gonna be sitting there like it could be someone who's sitting for an exam and they can't stop, think negative, could be a person who's getting up to give their first speech as the leader of a group. I could be someone who's getting the shit kicked outta them while they're doing Buds training.

It feels like there are so many people who are listening who are like, yeah, I like that Jon sounds great, but man, I'm facing this thing. Like how do you actually action that? So you now, it's a habit, but when you started, how did you action that?

[00:20:04] Jon Gordon: Best advice I ever heard is from Dr. James Gills, the only person on the planet that complete six double Ironman triathlons.

That's a, that's crazy. Ironman. Which means you do an Ironman. A day later you do another one. Last time he did, he was 59 years old and he said this. I've learned to talk to myself instead of listen to myself. He said, if I listen to myself, I hear all the fear, all the doubt, all the complaints, all the reasons why I can't finish this race.

But if I talk to myself, I could feed myself with the words and the encouragement that I need to keep on moving forward. So the key here is stop listening to those negative voices and start speaking truth to those lies. I ask professional athletes this all the time, do your negative thoughts come from you?

They all say, yeah, of course. I say, really? Who would ever choose to have a negative thought? You would never choose a negative thought. I wouldn't choose a negative thought. So where do the negative thoughts come from? And this is where you really get into things that will blow your mind. Thoughts come in the form of consciousness.

They're spiritual. No one has ever found a thought inside of a brain when you're sleeping and dreaming or having a nightmare. Do you choose those dreams? Do you choose those thoughts? No. They're always coming in. So thoughts exist. Like in this internet cloud software, the brain is the hardware, and we're always downloading these thoughts to our brain.

It's where the activation happens. So just because a negative thought comes in, doesn't mean you have to believe it. Don't believe the lies that they tell. Don't believe the fear that is a liar. Fear is a liar. That's not here for your good. It's here to sabotage you. I'm not talking about flight fight fear.

I'm talking about the one that says, you're not good enough, smart enough, you're not gonna get through this. You're gonna fail the test. They're not gonna listen to you in your talk. The future is hopeless. The marriage won't work out. Medical report's gonna come back bad, whatever it may be. We have this fear that holds us back and sabotage us, but you would never choose that fear.

So you have to recognize it really is in many ways, a mental and a spiritual battle where spiritual thoughts are coming in, they're lies. Don't believe the lies. What you wanna do is speak truth to them and the truth is. You are here to do great things. The truth is you wanna be great. 'cause deep down, you know there's greatness in you and there really is greatness in you because you would never wanna be great if there wasn't greatness in you.

So you know there's greatness there. You wanna be great. And that is truth. The truth is the best is yet to come. The truth is that if you are optimistic and positive, you have a better chance of success. We know that research from Duke University shows that optimists work harder, get paid more, and are more likely to succeed in business, in sports.

And what they found was that these optimists, because they believed in a brighter and better future, they then took the actions necessary to create it. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy. What you believe determines what you create, and that is truth. And so the more you understand truth, it allows you to win the battle of your mind.

To speak to those lies. And that's what I've done over the years. That's why I've won the battle of my mind. And then you start to see that manifested in my life. But once you win that battle, you become so much more powerful as you walk through this life. But what happens is those negative thoughts come in the form of five Ds, and I just wrote about that in The Garden.

Doubt, distortion, which are lies, discouragement, we don't give up 'cause it's hard. We give up 'cause we get discouraged. Distractions, they're the enemy of greatness. And then division. And the word anxious literally means divided. And so when you're anxious, you literally feel divided from yourself, from your team, and spiritually from God.

But we can overcome those five Ds and that's what we're talking about here. You speak truth, you trust. You speak truth of the lies you encourage. The word encourage means to put courage into. So you put courage into yourself, into others, and you keep encouraging yourself. Instead of distractions, you focus on what matters most.

You show up every day and you get better. You work hard. You control what you can control. We, we know all these kind of techniques, and we do that instead of all the distractions. And then instead of dividing, we unite. And for many. Unite to self means yoga. It means meditation. It means prayer, it means mindfulness.

Whatever technique works for you, you unite to self to each other and then spiritually. And that actually gives you a tremendous amount of confidence and power to take on the battle, win the battle, and then overcome any challenge you're facing. 

[00:24:19] Paddy Steinfort: Super cool. So much wisdom in there. We're gonna, I'm gonna do some deep notes on this afterwards.

The, you know, you said even a couple minutes ago. Ability talk to yourself rather than listen to yourself. And partly because of the belief in a better future. Martin Seligman, who actually was the founder of Positive Psychology, would temper that a little bit and he'd say, belief in the possibility of a better future.

I'm not believing that it is real, but it could be. And so I'm gonna do the work. And there was another famous thinker, Victor Frank said, in between stimulus and response is a space. And in that space is man's ability to choose. And that is where the choice is made. And if we're talking about some of these examples you've laid out there, having a negative thought or a negative feeling is gonna happen.

We're human. It even happens to Jon Gordon, the most positive person I've ever met. And when it happens, we have a choice whether to follow that down the rabbit hole and believe what it's saying, or start looking for other threats. Or we can talk to it or we can act. And as, and as you said, pro athletes that I work with on the daily, a lot of it is about like, you can pay attention to thoughts and feelings and let them grab your attention and, and you just, and that makes you act a certain way or you can focus on, here's my actions, here's what I'm paying attention to, and that is what pays you back.

You pay attention to things that pay you back. You don't pay attention to emotions and thoughts which will drain you and take away that balance of energy. 

[00:25:44] Jon Gordon: And what you focus on shows up more in your life for sure. So what you're looking for, what you focus on, what you give your attention to is everything.

So it's our ability to choose and recognize and the more you recognize it and you start to see these negative thoughts coming in, just being aware of it is, is really half the battle, understanding what's going on. Because a lot of times those negative thoughts come in so fast, you think they're coming from you.

Then you feel bad about having those thoughts, you repeat those thoughts, you actually start to have shame and guilt about those thoughts. You beat yourself up and next thing you know you're giving up. 'cause of those thoughts and they never were from you in the first place. So the minute you understand that and recognize that there's a tremendous amount of power and that and freedom, that I'm not my thoughts and I can actually respond, I always say grit is greater than thought.

And so the thought that comes in that says, maybe I don't have it today, maybe I'm not gonna win today. The grid that says, just keep going. And we'll see what happens. That's greater than that thought. The capability or the ability to know that no matter what I'm thinking, I can still be great in the next moment, even if my thoughts are negative.

We often hear that you have to have confidence to perform. Great. I have talked to so many successful people that have performed at their best when they actually released confidence. You have as well, right? Mm-hmm. Phil Dawson, the field goal kicker, told me some of his greatest kicks. He had his eyes closed and he didn't feel very confident.

And then like he kicked it through and everyone's like, man, man, he knew he was gonna get that one. He didn't know it all. And so I think there's this mindset that says we have to feel confidence. The key is to know that no matter what you're thinking, you can still perform right at your best. Right, and you still have the capability of being great in the next moment.

No matter what happened in the last moment, that doesn't matter. It's about the next moment. Let's make the next one great. And having that understanding that it's a rollercoaster and you're gonna have ups and downs, the more you understand it, you don't jump off the rollercoaster as you're going down.

You stay on it and then you ride it back up. I always say embrace the pain. Stay in the game. 

[00:27:49] Paddy Steinfort: I know, I mean, you mentioned one kicker there. I, I know. I remember talking to another kicker in the NFL similar topic, and they were talking about they wanna feel confident, they wanna be a beast, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, well, cool, we can totally work on that. And there's exercises and we can absolutely get to it. But have you ever been good when you weren't confident? And, and, and listeners can do this as well, and we all have instances where like, we're not gonna perform. I didn't feel great. The Michael Jordan flu game is probably the best example.

He didn't feel great. You still went out and he was the best player on the court by a mile. And we've all, if we go back into our Rolodex far enough in our calendars, like we've all had that experience and it helps decouple the must have of you don't. It's a nice to have. It's not a must have. And that's a really important distinction 

[00:28:34] Jon Gordon: Because if it's a must have and you don't have it that day, well then you're not gonna perform great anytime.

You have no confidence. I always ask people, I say, um, from the negative thought standpoint, or you're having negative thoughts. When are you at your best when you're thinking or not thinking? When you're thinking or not thinking? Everyone says what I'm not thinking. Yeah, so why would you want to think more?

You're at your best when you're not thinking. When you're in the moment, when you're in the zone. And what happens is a lot of times we'll start a competition where, we'll, we will be in a, in an exercise in the military and we're thinking a early on, but once you get into it, next thing you know, thought fades away.

Thought fades away and now you are just experiencing it. You're in the moment. It's a lot of mindfulness. You're very present. You're in that zone, you're not thinking, and that's when you perform at your best. So we don't wanna force ourselves to think, we actually want to think less, to be our best in those moments.

And so that's what I find with teams that have trouble starting out or they, they are second half teams. What happens is first half, they're thinking a lot. They're, a lot of times this happens to a lot of smart people when they're, when they're over there thinkers. And if you're a thinker. Once you get into it and you start being in the moment and feeling and experiencing, that's when thought fades away.

That's when you're at best, so don't try to think, actually, try not to think. 

[00:29:51] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, I think, I mean, that reminds me of one of the things, it was either in the talk you gave at the Eagles, or one that I saw very soon afterwards that struck me and has stayed with me is, yeah, early on in your speaking career or it's in your writer career.

Like a lot of the listeners right now. Maybe at the beginning of their journey, they could be starting up a new hobby, like I'm trying to write a book. Or they could be leading a new group, could be a coach, could be a commander, whatever it is here, I have to talk to these people and I'm not a good talker.

Right? And there, and there's all sorts of challenges of things that probably scare us, we may not be super familiar with. And particularly when things are uncertain and we don't know, unknown, we don't know how to do things, we don't have the answer. That's when thought starts up a lot. Right. I'm looking for the answers instead of just getting into it and trusting.

And you told a story of when you were talking early on and you turned up to a, a presentation, I think it might have been a sales team and there was not many people in the room and you were like, oh shit, I'm supposed to be a big speaker and this isn't where my, I saw my career going. It's almost like the opposite of being present is thinking about how I wish this moment was instead of just, alright, here I am.

And you told, you corrected yourself a little bit. Like you said before, you didn't listen to the voice, you talked to yourself to get you in the right mindset. Do you remember the anecdote I'm talking about here?

[00:31:05] Jon Gordon: Yeah. There was, um, there was supposed to be about a hundred people. There was retreat in the Pocono Mountains.

It was a tour I was on, and only six people showed up and I told myself, just make a difference in these six people's lives. Come on Jon. What's your mission? What's your vision? It's to encourage millions of people one person at a time. So make a difference in that one person. Impact those six people. So I did, years later, one of those six people was the head of Avon and brought me in to speak to 6,000'cause she remembered me from that day. 

Great lesson for me years later to remember. You just show up, you do the work, you impact the people who are right in front of you and you focus on that. If you do that right, if you, if you serve in small ways, you'll be used to serve in, in bigger ways. But yes, mentally I had to remember why I was there, what my purpose was.

And I think this is a big part of what we're talking about is purpose. Like we don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out 'cause we forget why we do it. And so we need to remember our purpose. Our purpose is greater than our challenges. Our vision needs to be greater than the circumstances that we're facing when we're going through challenges.

So these are the very things I think we're talking about, is to make sure that we're showing up with the right mindset, the right attitude, the. The way to overcome these negative thoughts. I love what you said though. Like if you are looking for the answer and you're seeking for it, that's actually when you're really weak, knowing that you have everything inside you that you need to be successful.

That's where strength comes in and understanding that and knowing that is where the power is. Another time I showed up to an event. I was speaking the next day. They were having a TEDx event that afternoon when they picked me up and their speaker canceled, and they asked me if I wanted to do the TED event.

And I had just spoken to the 49 ERs and I had four hours sleep and I said no. And then on the way there I was like, come on, Jon, your vision and mission. Don't forget it. I said, how many people are gonna be there? They said, about 400. I'm like, ah, all right. I gotta impact 400 people. If I have the chance. I might as well didn't prepare for this talk, didn't have a, a scripted thought talk that I was gonna give her anything.

I went there, I winged a TEDx talk and just went for it. And it was probably one of the better talks I've ever given, you know, just going for it. But I could have been like, you know, I'm not prepared. I don't have the information.

I said, you know what, just share what's inside you. And see what happens. And I think so often we, we don't go after things because of that fear that holds us back. But you know what? Life is short. Just go for it and just see what happens. 

[00:33:32] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And sometimes it's not fear and, and it's crystallizing now that it was, I did hear that around the time of the Eagles talk because one of the first major interactions I had with a pro player was with the guy at the Eagles, but it wasn't at the level that I kind of saw myself at, right? 

I'm working in the NFL now. I should be with the star quarterback or the, you know, the running back or the head coach and they gave me this kid who was a, a walkon trying out for the fourth running back spot is from Purdue Undrafted.

Like great kid. Like great kid, and sure as heck needed my help because he was going through a lot at home. And was trying to train was struggling, and we ended up working through it. He didn't make it at the Eagles. They didn't need another running back. They had three of the best in the league, but he ended up kicking on somewhere else to be like practice squad and then special teams.

And then last year he blew up and landed himself a multimillion dollar contract six or seven years later after being cut by seven teams. Right. And I, we still talk on Facebook and, and I have occasionally said, keep it up. And then when he blew up I was like, Hey man, congrats. He goes. I, I still thank you.

I still remember the, the talk that we had. I still, you know, you, you helped me out so much and I'm getting chills talking about this, but it's a perfect example of sometimes our ability to be in the moment and do the thing that we have to do isn't sometimes 'cause of fear, but it's also sometimes because like frustration, I should be better, I should be higher than this.

I should be getting better than this. Or it could be anger or it could be like discussed like, oh, you know, I'm beyond this. It's our ability to, whatever the feeling is, that's taking us out at the moment to be able to recognize that and be like, no just do the job that you can with what you have, with where you are now.

And like you said, we're if, if you have faith that what's inside you and you've done the work and you've got the skills, then if you do your job and you do it well enough things work out. 

Now that's, is a guy who's lived it himself. He knew he was good enough. No one else thought he was, but he's kept at it and he's kept at it and he's kept at it. And six years later, here he is now at the place where he rightfully thinks he should be. In fact, he thinks he should be higher because he's, he has a goal of, I'm gonna keep doing this until I'm in the hall of fame.

So it's incredible self belief. Some of us with their purpose, maybe they're not even clear with their purpose is like you were clear that here's my purpose just to help one person. Right? 

If someone still hasn't even got that clarity or they haven't got the selfie, what do you say to something like that? Let's say it's a coach. You in a new coach in the NFL, you've worked with some young coaches who are starting off first time with a big team, and I know from my own experience working with first year coaches, there's a lot of self-belief, but there's also a hell of a lot of self doubt.

I've done it, but I dunno if I can do it here. What would you talk to someone who's starting something off and may not have their connection with their purpose? 

[00:36:38] Jon Gordon: For full self belief, the key first and foremost, is just to start. Serving and start to find ways to help others. Your purpose always involves making a difference and serving others.

It always goes beyond you. People are most energized when they're using their strengths and their gifts and their talents for a bigger purpose beyond themselves. So you want to basically find ways to help others to you by using your gifts and strengths for a purpose beyond yourself. So for me, you start living with purpose, you start living on purpose and the more you start living with purpose and living on purpose and being intentional to do that, the more you actually have this bigger purpose that starts to flow through you, you start to become a conduit. It's like your small why, which is just being on purpose will lead you to a bigger why.

And that was what I did basically early on like I knew. Finally I realized I was here to make a difference. It wasn't about me. I was a narcissist. I was focused on myself. I was miserable, unhappy once. I said, I'm gonna make my life about others. Making a difference and impacting people. Right then and there, I just started in small ways, 80 free talks.

I gave anyone who would listen, anyone who would let me speak. I did it. And so I was just serving. And when I went on my first book tour for the energy bus, we had five people in one city, 10 people in another, 20 people in the most one we had were a hundred people in Des Moines, Iowa. They thought Jeff Gordon was coming.

That's why they shaked off. It was not a great tour, it was not successful. And God was showing me even back then, like, it's not a value, Jon. It's about serving others. It's about making a difference. Like is this real molding me and shaping me? And I'm going back to the early days when it wa it was never about the money, which it, it still isn't for me to this day, going back to the early days where I'm just basically showing up and doing the work and making a difference and it feels great.

Because it's about the vision. It's about the mission. It is about the purpose. And I'm going back to that and I feel like I'm a rookie again, just living it. But I'm a lot better than I used to be, but I'm, and I'm making a greater impact in doing this. So I've done all these zooms, all these, I've been so busy March, April, may, June.

I mean, I've been slammed. Actually need to take a break in July, just doing so much for so many teens. But you know what? It's been energizing and I've also grown and I'm now prepared for on the other side of this, when things do come back, I'm gonna be even better. So that's the thing, you live your purpose and you get better in the process.

So you gotta remember like why you do what you do. And it's never about the money, it's always about the purpose. So what would you do if money was no object. And then why do you do what you do? So if you're a coach, why do you coach? I mean, you have to understand as a coach, why you're a coaching as a leader.

Why do you lead? What is your purpose with your team? What do you wanna see them do? What is your vision for them? How do you wanna help them grow? Be intentional with that. Know that, and that will drive your actions. 

[00:39:31] Paddy Steinfort: It's fantastic. There's two things that spring. Firstly that you said, you know that it's about the mission.

And to steal a military adage it mission comes first. Like when the shit is hitting the fan, the mission comes first, and that's, that clearly applies to military combat scenarios, whether it's Army, Navy, air Force, mission comes first, but it applies to our lives as well. Our ability to know that when things are getting outta hand, whether it's on a personal front, you're losing money in your business.

Whether it in a relationship that being connected to the purpose beyond your current discomfort is one of the best predictors of whether you can get through that discomfort. And then the other part that you, you know, I asked the question about what if someone doesn't know their purpose? You gave a great tip of what are you doing for other people?

Like make it about other people. And you also mentioned a coach who occasionally when a coach is young and raw, and maybe they're just like an ex-player who's like, oh yeah, my mom, I'm gonna coach because I kind of like it and I know my shit. There's a, there's levels to it. And one of the things is to develop a coaching philosophy, particularly if you are gonna be interviewed for a head coaching position.

As every season changes, they turn over new coaches. One of the things they're gonna wanna know is, what's your coaching philosophy? Like, if you are forced to choose between veterans or youth, what are you gonna choose? And if you're forced to choose between this game style or that game style, whatcha gonna choose.

It's basically like, what are you about? And one of the best questions there for those who get stuck on Will I wanna win? It's like, cool. But if you're going in there as a new coach, chances are you're not gonna win like that. That coach has been fired for a reason. They're probably in the lower half of the standings.

So if it's not about winning, well, let's take it another step further. Why do you wanna win? Why do you want to coach that player to be better? And when you ask the five why, as you get down to, because I wanna make him a better human being. Because I wanna show the city what's possible, and it becomes about these bigger things that are always about other people. 

[00:41:29] Jon Gordon: And what's gonna cause you to win? Like what will drive the winning that you do? So often we focus on the fruit of the tree. So we look, can look at the outcomes and the numbers and the wins and the losses, or we could focus on the root. If you focus on the fruit. Ignore the root and treat eyes.

But if you invest in that root, and that's your why, that's your culture, that's how we're gonna do it. And your philosophy as you're talking about, that's gonna drive you to have great fruit. So you gotta know how to invest and nurture your root as a leader, as a culture builder, that will drive the success that you have as a team.

And if you don't have that, if you don't have that root and you don't have that foundation. You're not gonna produce great fruit. And so that's why we see the great coaches and the great leaders who have ongoing success, 'cause they have a philosophy, they have a purpose, and they really know that it's all about the root.

And that root will drive the fruit that's counterculture to the world. That just says, I gotta focus on the fruit. And I'm always focused on that. And the more you are, then everything else is dying. And then you realize what happens when you lose everything and you realize, oh, why? Well, I was ignoring the root.

Marriage. You gotta invest in your marriage. You gotta invest in your relationship. Most important thing you can invest in, you gotta invest in your kids. They're your root. You gotta make time for them. I've had to do that and, and make it a priority, and it's one of the most important things I've ever done.

Not that you're 22 and 20, you gotta invest in your emotional and mental and spiritual health. That's your root. You gotta focus on that. You gotta focus on your cohesiveness as a team, that's your root. If you don't do that as a team, you will not be as strong. Don't take this person, but I watched the Sixers and when I was watching the Sixers play the Raptors, I said, they're a good team when they're winning.

If they start to get down, that's when all of a sudden they actually start to fall apart. And I actually told Nick Nurse, I said, if you guys go further in the series and you go up and they start to have trouble, I said, you got this. Because if they go up and they feel confident, they're great front running team, but if they start to have struggles, they're not gonna be as as good, ‘cause I could observe from the outside, they weren't as strong, connected and committed as they needed to be. 

And I know that's not having, you have nothing to do with that, and you can't even probably talk about that. So don't, but I, I'm just telling you, I observed that from the outside working with all the teams I have. When you work with hundreds and hundreds of teams, you start to see it. And, and sure enough, after the season you see, okay, well some of the guys left and blah, blah, blah. They weren't as strong as they needed to be to withstand that. That's the route we're talking about. 

That's what makes you win a championship when you have that connection and commitment, ‘'cause when you see the team that has it. You know that root is strong and they will wither. They will weather the storm and overcome Clemson, Florida State. 2016, I spoke to the team The night before the game I said, I said a storm is coming tonight. You got it. Withstand the storm. If you wanna win this game, you're gonna have a storm.

You're gonna to overcome it. In order to win. Sure enough, they were down. They had a comeback like in the last couple minutes to score. They win the game. They overcame the storm. Same thing] happened when they played it in the national championship. Same thing. This was a team that was connected and committed. You didn't, if you didn't have that, you wouldn't have won a championship. 

[00:44:38] Paddy Steinfort: And that's a great, I mean, you, you mentioned a number of teams there, one of one of whom I work intimately with. But it's a great example of like, there are multiple levels of toughness and you can't just have tough individuals.

Within a loosely connected team and a culture that's only just started, if you've run up again, I mean, maybe it wins. But if you run up against a really solid team of veteran players that are connected, and it's gonna be much tougher than you want it to be. 

[00:45:02] Jon Gordon: When you have a committed, connected team going up ano against another team, which one is more committed? Which one is more connected? 

And then also talent plays a part of it, but it can overcome a lot of teams. Alabama's talent could overcome a lot of teams, but when they come up against a team like Clemson that has a lot of talent just like them, and the connection and the commitment. Then it's too much. We watched LSU win the championship in college and they had a, they had more talent than Clemson and they were definitely a connected and committed team with a great coach that did a great job that year and a great leadership in, in the quarterback Joe Burrow.

So when you saw that, that was a hard team to beat 'cause of all the. Things and all the characteristics they had. So culture, leadership, building that connected team and then that individual mindset of, of mental toughness of each person who then wants to serve each other and, and be there for each other and fight for each other. That's when you get something special. 

[00:45:57] Paddy Steinfort: Absolutely. You also spoke about. The focusing on the process, on the steps to getting there, which circling back to one of the earlier points, that's really, if I mentioned you can do exercises on confidence, that's really where we go is what can you control? What can you do?

We'll talk about that in another episode, but also the element there of it's about what you can control. We'll go back to that Raptors Sixes series as an example. Not to beat a dead horse, but at the start of that, I remember having multiple conversations. We posted it at the start of the series. I think it was 30 out of 32 National Press.

Correspondent like experts had picked the Raptors to get it done in four or five. Well, sixes weren't gonna win, let alone take it to seven, partly because we didn't have Kawhi let it, and partly because we were young and it was a team that had been cobbled together with six weeks to go. And there was so many things that were against that group, but it was about control, what you can control.

Be as connected as possible and then lay it all out there. And if that comes up short, if a ball drops in as the buzzer wins the first game, seven buzzer beater in the history of the NBA and you walk off, it's devastating, but it's a different feeling because you're like, we were as good as possible. We were better than everyone thought we were gonna be. And that's, that's all you can ask. 

[00:47:15] Jon Gordon: And that team did fight and did not give up. So that was exciting and that was great to watch. I mean, it really was. 

[00:47:22] Paddy Steinfort: I'm gonna play your own trick on you. Sometimes I'll ask a question of a player or a coach or another performer I'm working with, and they'll be like, oh, I'm not sure what's your answer?

And I'm like, damn, I didn't have my own answer. Ready? What's your answer? If someone was to say, share a hero. A hardship, a highlight, or a hope that you feel connects you to being more optimistic, having more grit, being able to give yourself the best chance of succeeding in the areas that you value, and particularly of achieving your mission. Wow. 

[00:47:51] Jon Gordon: So heroes, definitely, you know, my mom and dad just to who they were. And my mom passed away when she was 59 of cancer and she was just a working mom. Biological father left when I was a year old. And so she had to raise two kids on her own. And so definitely, uh, think about her a lot and, and how she led her family and was a working mom in the seventies.

And just a pioneer back then, dad just taking me and my brother on at his as his own raising us, and again, being a tough cop, but a loving dad to us, really made a difference in, in our lives. And I know he made a huge impact in my life. So I would say, uh, you know, heroes. For sure Ken Blanchard as well. I gotta give him a big shout out, the one minute manager author, and about 80 years old now, and just impacted me in a, in a huge way and showed me what was possible as a writer.

He was definitely my model for this kind of work in terms of leadership. So Ken Blanchard, he actually wrote a book with Don Shula on coaching. He and Don, back in the day, they were the two, you know, leadership and coach, wrote a book together and great friends as well. So Kim Blanchard, hero hardship, I would say.

You know my probably, biological father leaving when I, when I was one. Just something that even though I was young, something that stays with you as you get older. Something I had to work through, overcome. And then when I got older, I went to forgive him. I went up to visit him, told him I forgave him, and that's when my life turned around.

When I actually released that burden and that had that forgiveness for him. That's when everything changed. So I hold no resentment whatsoever. We don't have a relationship much to this day at really at all. We did for a little while, but I recognize that he is not someone I really wanna have a relationship with, but I still have forgiveness and I hold No, no resentment at all.

[00:49:37] Paddy Steinfort: And that's impressive in itself, just for the fact that you've been proactive about that doesn't. You're not carrying that with you anymore. You, yeah, you've acted on that. That's huge. 

[00:49:46] Jon Gordon: I've acted on it and I tried and again, tried and tried, but then you realize, you know, you could try, but you don't have to allow yourself to keep getting hurt or your kids to get hurt and experience what you experienced as a kid.

And so at that point you, you don't have to allow it to go on, but you could still forgive it and understand it, that everyone's trying to do the best they can. And you just don't hold any bitterness or resentment for it. So I would say that was a hardship I've had to overcome. And then also definitely my wife almost leaving me was probably the greatest hardship.

And going through the depression I went through at that time, depression and anxiety and fear, and just really crumbling from the inside out and not being someone at the time who could handle it. I would say I failed miserably. So that was definitely a hardship, but it led me to work that I do today, so I wouldn't change it.

So that was definitely the hardship and the highlight is, I would say, talking to you, it's, it's, it's getting to do this work, getting to impact, getting to make a difference. Definitely one of my highlights. I mean, being on the sidelines with Clemson winning a national championship. At the game was probably one of the greatest moments of my life of that experience and feeling that and being a part of that and seeing that live and the way it happened in the last minute, the last four seconds, probably one of the greatest moments in my life.

I would say that was a pretty cool highlight, but you know, just getting to write and speak and then you hold in your hand and then you're getting emails from people that's making a difference in their life. There's no better feeling in the world than doing that, and it's why you do what you do. So that drives me.

So I would say those hero hardship, high. What do I hope for? I hope for a future where we have more appreciation, but at the same time we have more drive, more passion, more love and more grit than ever to create our future and to create something great. Or the possibility, as you said, of a great future.

So I would say that for me is what I hope for. I hope that we come out as more united. We are more divided than ever as a country, and I truly hope that all the stuff we're going through. Are the typical conversations we need to have as one big team that will make us stronger in the end, not weaker. So my hope is that we become stronger as our country as a result of going through this.

And one day I just may run for office in about maybe eight years. If I feel like we don't have the leadership we need in the country, I may run because I just feel like we need a leadership in the country to be able to deal with all these hard challenges that we're facing. And I believe that. Whatever we face in the future, leadership is always the way forward to overcome the challenge that you have.

[00:52:13] Paddy Steinfort: That's awesome. I hope that those things come true as well. I hope our future leadership is more like Jon Gordon. I hope all of the listeners, every single one of you picks up one of Jon's books and really some of what you described there. Probably a great way to end it is one of your more recent tales was about the coffee be.

And the analogy there I think is a perfect summary of like, we're all in this really bad spot, some worse than others, but this is not a comfortable spot for many people to be. Whether it's, you know, we've talked about challenges in life, in personal life, trying to get ahead at work, trying not achieve something great.

But all of us are handling that within a context that's uncomfortable and we can go one way or the other. And I think your analogy of the coffee bean is a great way to talk about how an individual within that can change. Do you wanna share that? Yeah, share that. 

[00:53:03] Jon Gordon: Yeah. Finish, yeah. Love to share it. So the carrot, when it's put into boiling hot water gets softened, it gets weakened by its environment.

You put an egg into boiling hot water, that egg becomes hardened by its environment. So we can be like the carrot and become weakened. We can allow our situation, our circumstance, to affect us, to wear us down, to beat us down. We could be like. The egg where we become angry and bitter and frustrated where we just don't care anymore.

We don't care about people. We don't care about the mission. We just don't care. Or we can be like the coffee bean and you put the coffee bean in the boiling hot water, that coffee bean transforms the water into coffee within a. Even if it's not ground up, it will actually make coffee. And so instead of the environment impacting the coffee bean impacts its environment.

And that's the power we all have. The power is always on the inside. That within us is the power to transform the environment. Around us and outside of us. So you're not a victim of your circumstance that yes, we're gonna face adversity. Yes, we will face challenges, but our optimism, our belief, our work ethic, our passion, our grit, our love, our drive will help us overcome these challenges to create whatever it is we're gonna create.

So you have that power and you control that within you to impact the people in the world around you. One person they say will impact 80,000 people in the course of their lives. One person just on average. Think about that enough to fill a stadium. So you might not have thought of yourself as a leader, but you are a leader because even if you influence the people around you, even one person around you, you're a leader.

And you have to understand that you have that power. So if every one of us realizes this and we all start leading others in a positive way, we're gonna have a greater impact. So always remember you lead from the inside out. And the final thought on that is, is Pavarotti. Pavarotti was, was asked about. His great discipline that he had for his craft.

He said, everyone thinks it's discipline. He said, it's not discipline, it's devotion. He was so devoted to his craft. He loved it so much. It drove his discipline. And so that what you have inside you, the power inside you that love drives the discipline that then leads to the results. And if you try to be disciplined without love, it's really hard.

If you try to be disciplined without commitment, it's really hard. But if you love it, discipline is actually a lot easier. If you love it, you don't mind showing up, doing the work. If you try to be disciplined without loving it, then you always feel like you're climbing uphill, swimming upstream, going against the current, and it's a lot harder.

So it's that love that will drive you. So always remember, love is greater than fear. Tap into the purpose which is greater than your challenges. The vision that you have is greater than your circumstances, and that's where the power lies. 

[00:55:43] Paddy Steinfort: It's awesome and be like a coffee bean infect the environment around.

I love my coffee, so that analogy really appealed to me, but I think it's a, a great one, particularly for these times that we're in right now. Jon, thank you so much for joining us. Hopefully just to what you said about from some of your earlier talks, hopefully even just one of the listeners has been impacted like I have been, and thousands, if not millions, have been impacted by your work so far.

Jon is a person who lives what he does, uh, has been through some hard stuff, has scaled the mountain in a couple of areas, and I encourage you, like I said, to find at least one of his books. Follow his work. If people wanna find you. Jon, what's the best way to go? Instagram, Twitter, your website. What's up?

[00:56:24] Jon Gordon: Website is john gordon.com. J-O-N-gordon.com and Twitter. And Instagram is at jongordon11 at jongordon11.

[00:56:34] Paddy Steinfort: Jon, thanks again for your time being an awesome chat and look forward to seeing more of your work as you go on impacting lives. Hey, Patty, thanks so much and I appreciate you.