How Do You Train for CHAOS? The FDNY’s Surprising Answer

You Roll Up To A Burning Building. 

No time to pause. No time to plan. Just enough time to act.

Jason Brezler has faced that moment in combat and inside burning buildings across New York. But what helped him lead in those situations wasn't instinct or adrenaline. It was deliberate mental training.

In this episode, Jason breaks down how he helped build the FDNY’s mental performance program to train firefighters for the most unpredictable moments. And performance psychologist Jonathan Fader joins the conversation to explain how preparation, reflection, and trust are what keep high-pressure teams from breaking.

What we cover:
🔥 Why the most respected firefighters don’t rely on experience
🧠 How MLB mental training translated to firehouse leadership
🚫 What fear does to performance under pressure
📈 How elite responders prepare without knowing what’s coming
💬 The overlooked importance of post-action conversations

Connect with Jon:
🌐 Website: https://leadershipunderfire.com/
💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-brezler-9569ab4
✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/FDNY

Connect with Jonathan:
🌐 Website: https://jonathanfader.com/
💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fader/
✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/drfader
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_fader/
📚 Book: https://jonathanfader.com/writing/books/

Follow Paddy for more:
🌐 Website: www.toughness.com
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/paddysgram/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paddysteinfort/
✖️ X (Twitter): https://x.com/Paddys_posts

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Jonathan Fader: What makes things difficult to operate in a team is fear. We fear being blamed for criticized. Mental toughness is not punching someone in the face when they irritate you. It's having an excellent filter. When stress comes, I know ahead of time what my filter's going to be to be able to diminish the effect of that stress on my performance.

[00:00:10] Jason Brezler: One of the competitive disadvantages that we have at oftentimes it flies in emergencies, is we don't have the luxury of being able to call a timeout. The play clock doesn't stop. 

[00:00:29] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the Toughness Podcast. My name's Paddy Steinfort, your host, and today is an extra special episode.

I don't say that lightly. I've just had a little immersion event, which I'll play back to you in a second, into the type of world that one of our guests faces every day. Jason Brezler is a lieutenant with the fire department in New York. He is also currently in the Marine Reserves, has been with the Marines for many years and has deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Jason, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. It's an honor to have you. Joining him is Jonathan Fader, who I am lucky to call a friend and a colleague for many years. We crossed paths initially when I was working with the Toronto Blue Jays and he was with the New York Mets in Major League Baseball, where both moved on to, I would say, bigger and better things. So that's fantastic. Fader, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:22] Jason Brezler: Hey, it's so great to be here. I appreciate both of you being here. We're gonna talk a lot today about, obviously a consistent topic through all these shows is dealing with pressure, dealing with high stakes environments and how you can actually. Learn and grow and deal with that stuff better.

[00:01:37] Paddy Steinfort: And you two have worked in some areas that many of us are lucky if we get to experience one of them, let alone across multiple. Fader. you've worked in Major League Baseball as we just spoke about, and you're currently involved and you've helped with Jason's initiative of setting up what's known as the MPI, right?

That's the Mental Performance Initiative of the Fire Department of New York. Can you tell us, either of you can jump in here. How did that come about? Like what, it's a nice idea, but to turn it into an actual program that runs in an org, the size of fire department of New York, like it's gotta be an interesting journey.

[00:02:10] Jason Brezler: Sure. So I kind of offer my, my insight on it. And then it'd be great to have Fader share his, given his the prominent role that he's, he's had in the. And particularly in shaping the program, but going about probably back a, a decade now in time, I had recently come back from Afghanistan, a pretty challenging tour there on the heels of a pretty challenging tour with an infantry battalion in Falluja Rock at the height of the insurgency there.

And both of those deployments really solidified for me the fact that the human factor undoubtedly is the single most important aspect as it relates to performance in a, in a combat unit. You know the military gives a lot of attention, makes a huge investment in the tactical aspect, technological equipment, you know, resources, et cetera, and for all good reasons.

But the ability to function in a chaotic dynamic on, on certain lethal environment is really the, the, the name of the game in a cohesive fashion with teammates and other members of your, of your unit. When I transitioned back from my tour in Afghanistan, I probably had five or six years on the fire department at the time, enough in the way of experience to kind of feel confident at fires and kind of understand what it took to be a good firefighter, but not nearly as much of the experience to the extent that I would've considered myself an expert in any way.

And when I looked around the FDNY, when I looked at the guys that I held in the highest regard, they all had a tremendous amount of ex experience. And they also dis displayed other, kind of traits and characteristics. Under pressure under. But one of the things that they all had going for them was they had tremendous amount of experience.

And I recognized that my generation was probably less likely to, to gain the amount of experience or reps that they had, which is arguably a, a good thing for society. It's a good thing for New York City, but it's not necessarily good for the guy that wants to be the best version of himself. Tough at fires and emergencies.

And when I asked these guys what they valued most at fires, particularly in terms of a leader or an officer across the board, everyone said somebody who was calm, composed, decisive, under pressure made exercise, good, good judgment, was able to maintain and foster a sense of calm. So I said, great. So I said, well, where does a guy with not nearly as much of exp experience go to learn about that?

And they all kind of just shrugged and said it, it came with time and experience and I understood their perspective and I understood where they were coming from. I was just kind of dissatisfied with that answer because I didn't wanna have to wait till I had 25 years on the job to own that aspect to performance.

And I also recognize that I might, might not be able to gain the number of repetitions that they did over the course of their career. So having played baseball at a pretty high level in terms of college division one, I was somewhat, probably loosely familiar with the field of, of sports psychology and the role of mental conditioning coaches.

I was aware of the fact that there were pockets within the military that had beg had begun to embrace this, more of them being in, in special operations than in the conventional units. And I just somewhat build up a network of folks who I felt I'd be able to help. At the same time, I had a couple opportunities to kind of present this deficiency to the senior leadership in the FDNY, not knowing really where it would land, because oftentimes the case, when you say mental and performance, people immediately start thinking about the clinical aspect or behavioral, and when I just looked around, arguably the world's, I'm of course biased, but the world's best fire department, certainly North America's biggest fire department, arguably its busiest.

We had a tremendous amount of, you know, similar military, great deal of attention devoted to the tactics, technology, the equipment, and a really good understanding of kind of how our environment behaved, but a rather inadequate understanding of how we as humans. Fires and emergencies. So I was just blessed that the senior leadership at the time when I initially presented this deficiency to them, but then followed it up with the fact that I thought this was an opportunity to build a, a program that was comprehensive and holistic in nature.

Credit to them for listening and being willing, you know, their willingness to be challenged by somebody who was far less experienced and seasoned and subordinate to them several ranks over. So that was my, uh, I recognized when it was gonna take a team of subject matter experts that had built human performance programs in similar but different industries to kind of lend some insight and influence and credibility to what it was we're trying to do.

And at the time I recognized that Sandy Alderon, then general manager of the New York Mets, was probably one of the best figures that could help lend some insight and influence and credibility given his, the heavy lift that he did in baseball dating back to the eighties. And through my relationship with Sandy, who also happens to be a Combat Marine, through my relationship with Sandy and his willingness to help, I then met Fader, which was absolutely huge.

[00:07:29] Paddy Steinfort: Well, tell us, because we both had experiences in our. In the recent past of meeting John Fader, and it's an interesting experience for me. I remember vividly the first time I met you, Fader, I'm not sure if you do, but it's at a, a major league baseball function, I guess run just for the psychologist. Some performance, some clinical, and Fader was this cool mix of a guy who kind of bridged both worlds, had a foot in each camp and, and has extreme knowledge like could be nerdy and arrogant, but at the same time is one of the most down to earth and humble dudes that's sort of down to earth guy.

[00:08:06] Jonathan Fader: I know for you guys to speak to the arrogance part, but nerdy for sure. I'm that on that measurement and..

[00:08:14] Paddy Steinfort: And so I'm curious, Jason, when you met him particularly via Sandy, what, what was your impression of, given that you were looking for? Arguably someone who could bring the knowledge that Fader has and the experience of working with Major League Baseball, but he's gotta also be a little bit badass to be able to go in and like.

With fire department or in your experience you've been with like Combat Marines, like did, was there something about Fader you're like, oh, actually this guy's gonna do it. 

[00:08:42] Jason Brezler: I was definitely curious to see how it was all gonna work. So I knew that he was gonna be the first bonafide clinical psychologist, performance psychologist that we introduced to the FDNY.

Um, I knew he would probably carry some street cred coming from professional sport, but I also knew that, you know, the bottom line is I knew that Sandy wasn't gonna lead me astray. Right? Like, if Sandy's like, Hey, this is my guy, he's solid. That's all I really needed to know. But yeah, absolutely, certainly his personality was gonna kind of influence the reception that he was gonna, he was gonna receive.

And, you know, I also kind of knew as it relates to this initiative, like sometimes you kind of get one chance to get it right. Mm-hmm. And if you get it wrong, that that memory, uh, endures and not gonna say you, you can't eventually get it right. But it's very difficult. So, the first time I met Fader a few times at his office in soho at the time, or in union, like in vicinity, union Square.

And he's a hip dude, right? So, but he's got, he's got the credibility in sport. He's kind of cerebral, he's very ex extroverted, you know, kind of guy I enjoyed hanging out with. And at the time I was writing a point paper to help kind of shape the argument with the FDY senior leadership. And he was super helpful in, in that role.

But then I knew where the next order of business was gonna be to bring him to the firehouse and see how he was received by the population at, at large, not just me. So at the time I was working in Rescue two, I'm of course biased 'cause then I'm alum, but it's largely without dispute. One of the best fly offs in the New York City Fire Department.

Certainly the busiest and, and has been for several decades. And, you know, it really is like an elite place and I was honored to have worked there for a number of years. So I bring Fader by one night. And a lot of the guys that are working are, you know, avid sports fans. Couple are some pretty serious athletes, and most importantly they're some of the best firefighters that I've ever worked with.

And uh, so we bring, fader comes by one evening, it's not too far from his house. And uh, it was just interesting to see because I knew that the guys were gonna kind of throw the screws to him. And I'm thinking in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, this guy's at least like can hold his own in a Mets clubhouse in a professional sports team, clubhouse or locker room.

The difference is like not taking away from that environment, but those guys are like kids. These guys are like men. They're like 52, 50 3-year-old men and they're like rabid dogs. You know? Like actually one, one of the, one of the mantras of rescue two is because it's just a competitive place in some stances is like, is embrace the, is embrace the hate and the guys are just, they're tough on each other, right?

It's all about maintaining that sense of confidence, but knowing you're one fire away from getting your ass kicked in such a way that's incredibly humbling. And I think part of the nature of the kitchen and the dynamic of the place, and it's similar in other files, is just keeping everyone in check.

[00:11:34] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. How much of that is a, is a cultural development of like, if, if we treat each other like this, we're gonna be as prepared as possible for the shit that we have to face out there. Like is that a, do you think that's like evolved over time or that's just the nature of the beast that comes into the room?

[00:11:48] Jason Brezler: Yeah, I, I think it's evolved over, over time. I don't know if the guys have, have been as thoughtful as in terms of like, in what goes into the culture to that extent, but I do think like it is a type of place where you just gotta be consistently on your toes. So Fader comes into this, en this environment as an outsider.

And typically most places, like when an outsider come in, folks are super hospitable, right? But Fader is not, there's just some guy who wants to see the fire truck, right? Like Fader is there as some guy as part of this potential endeavor to make the FDY better, right? And he's like starting in a firehouse where arguably some of the best guys work and he comes in and they had a couple of questions for him.

You know, like just to kind of pull him in little outside his comfort zone. Or maybe he throw him some curve balls. And he was great. Like he just kind of, it was like they threw him a curve ball and he knew just to kind of sit back and hit it the other way. And he played to his strengths, right? He kind of avoided his weaknesses and they, they threw him two, one or two, like kind of high fast balls and he hung in and maintained his sensory of composure and probably very quickly, it's like two dogs sniffing each other.

They're good with him, he's good with them, but they threw him some high heat early. He handled it well and I, I knew he was gonna do just fine in terms of holding his own in the after UY. 

[00:13:10] Paddy Steinfort: Awesome. Well, I mean, it's a great example. You've gotta practice what you preach, right? Faa you've been working with these athletes and we'll circle back to some comparisons across the groups, but what's your memory of that?

Not necessarily meeting Jason the first time, but your, your first experience of going into that environment of, was it not dissimilar to going into a major league locker room or an NFL locker room in terms of the testing around? 

[00:13:31] Jonathan Fader: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the difference is when Jason got me, you know, he armed me up and stuff like that, you know, I start, once he put on the bulletproof vest, I thought, okay, this is gonna be a little bit different.

In all seriousness, I mean, I think the thing that, that, you know, Jason's talking about two dogs sniffing each other is, is widespread, whether it's in sports or whether it's in firefighting or military settings, people are trying to get a sense, who is this person? Do they fit in? And you know, I think a lot of, you know, what makes the transition of a mental performance program work wherever you're doing has to do with that, the way it's introduced. 

And so I think Jason was super thoughtful about that with the mental performance initiative at the FDNY. Uh, a lot of this is the messenger. You know, like if you go in with the wrong way of saying things or a certain amount of kind of knowit allness or disrespect, you're gonna get eaten.

But at the same time, if you have no backbone to your principles and to what you think, you're gonna be disrespected as well. And that's been my experience as well, working in professional sports. I think there's, there's tremendous overlap, but what Jason is saying is true. I mean, you know, these guys are elite, elite operators and the stage of the game that they play at is way, way higher than anything in professional sports.

I guess you can make the argument that in MMA or something like that, you're putting your life on the line, but there's nothing in sports that compares to the scale, scale at which people experience things like physiological arousal. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I have just tremendous respect. And so I think what has worked for me is to, to show that humility and that respect for the operators in which I'm working with, but also to, to say like, Hey, here's this tool that we have, and totally up to you how much you wanna, how much you wanna try it out.

I think, you know, as you pointed out, there's a tremendous misunderstanding about what mental conditioning is, and that occurs in sports. That's not just in firefighting. I mean that, that definitely occurs in sports. Human beings do not like uncertainty for what they can't understand. You know, if something's uncertain or they can't understand it.

This is as deeply in us as humans. We're gonna run for the hills. And so whether you're a baseball player or a firefighter, your first instinct when someone starts talking about something you don't understand is to get away from it. And so I, I think that that's true in sports, probably less so now because just there's been an evolution and in the military too, but in firefighting, Jason and the crew at the FDN wire, some of the first people to take a wide scale mental performance initiative or mental training to really an entire department.

That's been such an honor, a tremendous honor, uh, to be tapped, to be involved in any way in that it's a really unique program. 

[00:16:10] Paddy Steinfort: As you mentioned, one of the first firehouses and the biggest to take on something like this and that it has been seeded and started to grow up in a couple of other high performing industries.

But you're right that the concept of, you mentioned before, Jason, you know, it's unpredictable. It's all these things, but you attack the word lethal on the end of it, and that's something we don't deal with in pro sports, which makes a big difference. I'm curious for you, Fader, and then Jason, you might be able to weigh in afterwards, is comparing the groups you've worked with pro athletes and I am often surprised and often get asked, like, don't they just eat your shit up because like it helps 'em make an extra $10 million and they get a better contract and like, doesn't it make sense that everyone would wanna do that? 

And it's absolutely not the case. There's a lot of sensitivity to introduction and also there's a lot of like, if ain't broke, don't fix it. Like I got here, don't fuck me up, don't get in my head. Right. And so that exists to a degree in sport. Is there less of that or more of that in terms of either running away or pure resistance for people who are dealing with life and death? Because it would make sense that if you're gonna gimme something that helps me handle pressure better and it means I'm more likely to stay alive, then I'm all about it.

[00:17:18] Paddy Steinfort: But I'm assuming that's not always the case. Did you find a difference there between sport and fire operators? 

[00:17:26] Jonathan Fader: Yeah, I mean that's a really insightful question Patty. And I think there is, in my experience, there's a big difference in my experience working with firefighters. There's much less resistance, considerably less resistance.

You know, I think of. And I think about like what's the dynamic by why that's the case. I mean, Jason, I'm sure has some thoughts about this and maybe has a different experience, but I think there's two reasons. A number of things. One is that the way the program is designed, as Jason was saying, you know, he worked with me and other people to say, Hey, let's look at what other people are doing in pro sports.

So he's like building a case about why this works. And so when it was introduced, it's part of the way it was introduced. As I always say, sometimes you wanna serve a chicken dinner, but people want chicken McNuggets, so you gotta make it chicken McNuggets. And so Jason really, and the crew and MPI Pro, he led it in a way, and it still leads it in a way that it's really designed to say like, Hey look, this is what elite athletes programs are doing.

And so I think in sports there is a precedent for it, but you know, there's not like, oh, let's look at what these guys are doing. And funny enough, we've tried to do that and you know, I brought Jason to work with the Giants and I've brought, you know, elite operators like Navy Seals to work with the Mets.

But I think the other element of this, which is what you got at before Patty, is, you know, I think there's this sense of like, look, I can't afford not to evaluate something that's gonna be helpful. Like if my life's on the line. I don't have the luxury of saying, ah, that's a stigma. Like I, you know, I don't know.

I need to really evaluate anything. And by the way, I've noticed differences between baseball and football in this, right? I mean, baseball has a sense of like, okay, it's the 400th game of the year. Like I've got all the chances in the world. And football you have, the sense is like, we go 16 times. Like if someone's gonna help me, I gotta evaluate it.

And so I think the continuum for me is that football, there's been more of a, an openness to it, but firefighting has been a lot. I just don't wanna discount the fact that a lot of that has to be attributed to the design and to the way it's introduced as well. 

[00:19:29] Paddy Steinfort: For sure. I think that, I mean, my experience in full, I've worked in baseball and football as well, and my time in football was with the Eagles, and it was the first time a program had been rolled out by that.

Thanks to Chip Kelly being a very progressive coach. But one of the things I noticed that was immediately different was in football you do what you're told much more than most of the other sports baseball's in between and basketballs are right at the other end. And so I assume as you get further into fire and probably even at the pointy end of the spear with Navy seals, like if you're told to do something by the bosses, you, you end up doing it.

Is that true, Jason? Or is there, is there more pushback, particularly as you get to the lead operator operators who are like, yo, I'm the best of the best. Don't tell me what to do. 

[00:20:08] Jason Brezler: So you both raised some really great points and these are things that we had to navigate and contemplate, particularly in the early, early phases as we were designing this program and figuring out what language we were gonna use, what message we were gonna use, who we were gonna partner with on the outside.

And one of the things I never wanted this program to be reduced to was somebody doing something 'cause their boss told them to do it. Like if that's, and oftentimes I think one of the biggest myths about that society borrows from the military is that young Lance corporals or corporals or sergeants in, in the Marine Corps and the Army do exactly what they told to do on the battlefield.

Exactly what they're told to when they're told to do it right. Like this blind obedience to orders. And, and I know firsthand like that approach doesn't work. It's absolutely dangerous. And I didn't want, sometimes we'll roll something out and we won't give folks a choice. It'll be a piece of equipment that, that is superior than the previous generations.

And they're like, Hey, you have to wear this doesn't matter. You have to do this training. It doesn't matter. But this program is so important, both professionally and personally. I, I didn't want folks to kind of have to blindly commit to embracing mental performance or mental conditioning or mental skills or any, any of this because their bosses were told them they had to rather, I wanted them to do it because that they wanted to do it.

And one of the things I know that's true about virtually every single New York City farm I've ever worked with. They all wanna be better, right? And as many reps as there aren't enough, right? But it's not like batting practice, right? I can't just show up tomorrow and like have the pitchers throw me batting practice.

I'm going to work tonight. I might go to two fires. I might not go to any fires. I don't have control over how many fires I go to, but I have control of the training evolutions I'm gonna run. I have control of the conversations that we're gonna have. I have control over the type of reflection that we're gonna do on recent fires.

And I knew that every individual in the organization that I respect and admire the types of individuals that make the New York City Fire Department what it is, they all wanna be better. I also know that in the military and fire service and law enforcement right now and, and in recent years, there's a tremendous amount of attention being given to the mental health piece.

And that's significant because the fact is that some people do struggle. Maybe not to the extent that the narrative suggests, but there is a need for legitimate bonafide mental health resources and with the best of intentions. A lot of organizations, when they're looking to address the mental aspect performance, they're leading with the behavioral health and the mental health piece.

The bottom line is though, that's not really what excites most operators. So I, I'm like, you know what? This is another por opportunity for us to connect with guys and gals and help give them a better understanding of how they respond to stress, both in the moment, like in an acute sense and on the back end of, of an event that was catastrophic.

The outcome was certainly catastrophic and we could, this initiative is kind of like a way to, to build a backstop in. But if we give, if we're giving our folks a better understanding how they function under stress, we're giving them skills to absorb that stress in a meaningful way. We're helping to create a, a language that's tactically acceptable, right?

And they're able to generate a better baseline, right? And enhance their self-awareness. Now, in instances where they do struggle, and at times we all do, they're further along in the, in that process, right? So I wanted the initiative to be focused on making them better. And you know, we just in, in many instances, because our organization's so rich in history, we're, we've all been blessed with a number of mentors that we look back in retrospect and like, if I could go to any fire, you know, you send me the worst fire ever and you allow me, gimme the good fortune of picking who I wanna come to that fire with me.

It's this guy in many instances that guy's retired. And then you drill into that, well, why? He's composed, he's decisive, right? He's confident, but he's humble. And it's a great starts saying, you know, all of these, all of these qualities are characteristics of the mind. 

[00:24:14] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And, and it's a great like that, I use that mirror question almost either, what's been the best version of you?

Or who's the best player you've played with? Right? Whatever. But particularly when I'm saying to someone, what does toughness look like? Well, tell me because you say you wanna be tough. What does that actually mean? And get them to actually draw that out. Like, here's what we're really talking about when we say these mental elements that we think are pretty important.

You know, you mentioned before if you ask high level performers what's the most important part of your performance? They're like, oh, it's definitely mental edge. What do you do about that and what do you mean when you say mental edge? So I'm gonna ask both of you at some point, your definition of that question is, but Jason, you were kind of heading down that way anyway.

What would you say is toughness in both your military and fire experience? And also like at what point in your career were you like, this is a thing and it's a such an important thing that I need to do something about that? Was there an incident that revealed it to you or a person or it just sort of grew?

[00:25:11] Jason Brezler: Yeah, I mean there's countless that I can think of both in combat and at fires. And in many instances when I look back, it might kind of, so optimal performance, it's because the, it's somewhat cliche, but because the pressure of the moment be almost instantaneously or spontaneously exceeded the privilege of the moment and it went from like enjoyment mode, confident mode.

Like I got this to like, oh shit, I don't have this. And in many instances left to my own devices, I responded both kind of mentally and, and physically with more aggression. Right. In an instance where it was actually like, and now in retrospect it would've been, it's better for me to kind of dial it back, right?

Like less energy, less a scientific context, like less, less arousal. Mm-hmm. I mean, years ago I really embraced this notion of mental toughness. You know, I pride myself on being a combat marine and having fought in places like Ion Southern Afghanistan and prided myself of a New York City firefighter. But as my understanding of the science and human behavior has, has evolved and has, I've benefited greatly from expertise and insight from folks like Fader and so many other folks in, in sport in the military, it's rare that I even refer to it as toughness. 

‘Cause I think really what it is, it's actually agility. Because what we're actually looking for in these moments is we're looking for finesse, right? So a guy forcing a door in New York City that's fortified and has several case hardened locks and steel to basically, so that someone can't force that door at, at will, right?

And, and commit theft. Those are the same types of buildings now we find ourselves to flyers at, in, in, in urban environments. Like you're not defeating those locks through force. In fact, that's why those, the locks are designed that way, right? You're defeating those locks because you understand how to use the tool, right.

And apply physics. It's all about finesse. It's, and I could say the same in combat, like employing your weapon system. On the surface, it looks like a tough act. It is you arguably potentially taking somebody's life, right? Or neutralizing an an armed threat, right, to increase the likelihood that you, you win.

But it's on the surface, it looks like it's about toughness. It's really about finesse, the ability to pull a trigger, right? The ability to inate a fallen comrade, right? The ability to apply a tourniquet to an injured civilian, like all of these things that we do at fires and emergencies and large, the ability to fly a helicopter, right?

I mean, there are times where the toughness kicks in, right? You're several hours into this patrol, you're several hours into this demanding tour. At the firehouse, you're several hours into your demanding patrol and law enforcement. But for the most part, what we're actually the, these high pressure situations, high stakes, what we actually need is actually less brute.

Yeah, right. Less force and more precision or more agility or more finesse. And it really was like through my relationship, particularly with Fader and seeing his work with athletes, that kind of helped really solidify that for me. 

[00:28:23] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And that, and that's a fascinating, like I've probably discovered that myself playing professional sport as a young man and then being just a normal coach. Before I became a mental coach or a performance coach that I always thought it was like, be tougher, be stronger, hang in there longer. Like it was much more about force and endurance. But the more I've learned, and particularly with high level performers, it does become a lot more about definitely agility.

Like there's not always one way to solve a problem, and also flexibility that at times I'll actually let go and that's what needs to happen here for us to work this out. Federer, what's been your biggest aha in that area in terms of coming today? 

[00:29:00] Jonathan Fader: My biggest aha, my biggest haha was definitely when I was trying to, I was teaching a, a workshop for a bunch of FDNY lieutenants and I was talking about, you know, someone asked about mental toughness and, you know, I went on this huge, like professorial lecture about, oh, mental toughness, talking about some of the nuances that Jason pointed out.

But I was basically saying, look, mental toughness is the wrong idea. It's about mental strength. Flexibility. It's about agility as Jason pointed out. And I went on this whole lecture and you know, I actually even got into it. One guy was sort of coming after me in the same way that Jason recounted and I had to like dodge a few questions about, he was really asking me, well, where, well, why do people say mental toughness?

And I was trying to make a point and there was a little bit of, you know, to and throw that a little kind of judo. And then, you know, this is the people, these are people I know, many of them pretty well. So it was all in fun. But then that night there's this family called the Wallenda family. They walk on high wires above things.

So they were this family, Nick and, and Leona Wallenda were walking across Times Square. As you do, as you know, we all do that on, on a 

[00:30:07] Paddy Steinfort: Tuesday evening, you know? 

[00:30:08] Jonathan Fader: Exactly. Just, you know, Wednesday in New York City, and so you decide to walk across the high wire. But Paddy, they were walking on a high wire and they were gonna unclip from their harnesses and walk over each other.

And so the team asked me to come and comment on this. So I'm on tv, like in Times Square. And one of the things that we talk a lot about in mental conditioning is this idea, as Jason's talking about, about finding a place of calm in the middle of chaos, and what are the techniques that you use or the way of being to find that calm in the middle of chaos, and how can you be your best self in those situations?

In other words, one, one idea I have about what we would call mental toughness, but I think about agility, is being able to perform the same way that you perform without a stress. When the stress is there. And so basically, you know, what happens is I actually fail at my own game in that moment. I get so freaking, you know, hyper aroused, my arousal's ticked up.

I'm so activated that when the guy, um, Michael Strahan's interviewing me, I start getting amped and I'm like, you know what? It's just, just incredible, incredible mental tough. And my phone literally lights up after I walk off this, you know, interview. And all these FDNY guys are just like razzing me about, oh really?

Mental toughness now fader. Like you didn't like that term. And now, so I mean, I think basically, you know, when I think about this one NFL running back once said to me, I do this exercise with teams where I'll say, okay, as you're talking about what is mental toughness? And I'll have everybody fill out a little note card.

I mean, you do get back some kind of very hilarious responses to that. You know, like someone said, once, you know, mental toughness is not punching someone in the face when they irritate you. Um, and they're not, they're not entirely wrong, but really one of the best definitions that I got about mental toughness is that it's having an excellent filter.

And I think when you think about what that means, it's saying like, okay, when stress comes, I know ahead of time what my filter's going to be to be able to diminish the effect of that stress on my performance. And so I think what most people do is they don't develop that filter. They don't know, they don't know how they're gonna react.

They're just kind of freewheeling it. And it's, it's kind of, to me to, to your point before. It's pretty crazy that that's the case, especially when you think about what kind of games are on the line or in an operator space, what's on the line. Right? We're kind of freewheeling a lot of the time we're saying, well, if I get, if it gets hairy or sideways, as they say sometimes in the fire department, I don't know how I'm gonna, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, you know, when I ask Major League baseball players that it shows me who they are.

Because if I ask someone, a player like, Hey, what do you do if you give up a home run? And they'll say, well, you know, I just kind of shake it off. But then I say, okay, how do you do that? And if they can't tell me in very specific terms, I know that they're actually vulnerable out there. 

They can't say, well, what I do is I take a deep breath or what I do, or even to me, like I'm not sure what I do, but I have this kind of little place I go.

Yeah. In my mind, that's fine. Right? It doesn't have to be like, oh, I use self-talk, like whatever, you know, but not having a way, yeah, green way that I, this is the way that my mind goes to help me through it, and I know what that place is and I know how to navigate there. If you don't have that, you're really in jeopardy.

[00:33:29] Paddy Steinfort: I think, and in and in particular, and it's a great, I love that idea of the filter in particular.

I had a quarterback one time who would talk about going one for one. It wasn't necessarily like, it might be a bad throw in interception, bad drive, whatever, but it was less about, it was partly about like, here's where I want to go. I'll step out, I'll disconnect, but it's, I'm disconnecting so I can redirect and I need to know what I'm redirecting to.

So it's about him. I'm choosing what I pay attention to. And in the end, no matter what I do, whether I look in the crowd for a pretty girl or I pray to God or whatever it might be. After all that I want to end up focusing on back on this is my non-negotiable priority thing. 

[00:34:06] Jonathan Fader: And that's, well, you know what, and you said another thing, Patty, that I think is super important, which is, you know, this idea of task relevant cues.

Like when we don't have a great filter, we start paying attention to cues in our environment that are not relevant to the task. And so part of the goal of having a great filter is to be able to pay most of your attention to task relevant cues. 

[00:34:28] Paddy Steinfort: And in an environment like you are dealing with Jason, that's like even harder than, as we said before, than pro sports.

There's things that can kill you. There's people that you care a lot for who could die. And so there's a lot of things that can take your attention that may not be what you need to focus on at that time. So I'm curious, as we start to draw the show to a close. You've mentioned a few times about training and here's the, you know, an exercise we might run.

What's something for people who might be dealing with a level of pressure that's like over the top of what they're used to, or it's chaotic or potentially lethal as you're in the military, that, here's a little simple thing that, that I've found useful or that we teach that is pretty easy to put into place, but it does make an immediate difference in terms of both filter and clarifying what are the task relevant cues that I should be gonna,yeah.

[00:35:16] Jason Brezler: You both raised several great points and one of the competitive disadvantages that we have, it oftentimes it flies in emergencies, is we don't have the luxury of being able to call a timeout. 

[00:35:25] Paddy Steinfort: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:26] Jason Brezler: The play clock doesn't stop, you know, similar to combat, so you basically have to create like micro timeouts.

Right. And one of the things that I, I think that we were able to borrow from, from sport and apply was it wasn't lost on any of us. In the New York City fire Department, then we went to Pfizer emergencies. We were tested physiologically, psychologically, cognitively, et cetera. I don't know of a single New York City firefighter that, that, that's experienced and been tested, that that looks at the science now that we're introducing folks to earlier in their career and exposing them to, and says, that's bullshit, right?

Like it hasn't happened yet. Everyone says, actually that's, I've experienced all of that, right? In maybe ways that I didn't even appreciate it at the time. So historically, if you ask our folks like, when is the ability to control your breath or arousal or your respiratory rate, or these physiological functions, or your mindset, or your inner monolo inner monologue, when is it most important?

Most of our folks said, well, I'm at a fire where a firefighter is trapped in distress, running out of air lost. Like where the consequences of failure are beyond lethal. That's when I use these skills. Right? And we started to have a conversation, you know, kind of in open forum, like, well, all right, how many of those events do we go to?

Well, they're very infrequent. Okay? So if a relief pitcher a closer doesn't tap into these skills, right? Or these techniques until game seven of the World Series, what's the chance he's gonna suddenly pull him out of his his ass, right? Like he, he's not. So every fire and emergency that we go to, right, or every training evolution that we perform is kind of an opportunity, provides an opportunity for us to integrate these skills in.

And the reality is, and this is something we've also borrowed from sports psychology because. Occasionally somebody will resistance and says like, look, I, I don't want to be thinking about anything more at fires and emergencies. I just wanna be able to trust my instincts, my training, and I wanna be, you know, present.

Great. Right? They're like, I don't wanna add any more cognitive drag to what I already have on my plate. We're like, great. That's exactly what this program, he's advocating. Right? We spend far more time thinking about this aspect of performance during the preparation phase. It's relatively light during the execution phase, right?

The operational phase. And then as soon as the event is over, it's back to the drawing board and during the reflection phase it becomes very cognitive, very, very cognitive and, and, and somewhat burdensome, particularly if we're gonna try to absorb our failure in a meaningful way and learn from it. And that, that thinking has been huge.

I mean, I know personally it's been super, super helpful for me, knowing that these events we go to are sometimes few and far between. They're infrequent. They last for only a matter of minutes. There's no timeouts, and you never walk away and say, that was the absolute best version of myself. If you're being honest with yourself or it's super rare and now you have days, weeks, and months to think about this before you see something like that again.

Occasionally you, you, it could be a novel event. You won't see another, you know, again, for another decade or two if, if ever. So having that, that comprehensive approach broken down by phases and figuring out when the skills work best specific to each phase in each task has been super helpful. And Fader Hass been instrumental in helping us to really maximize that effort.

[00:38:55] Paddy Steinfort: Some great examples there. 

[00:38:57] Jason Brezler: We introduced this program in 2000 and we designed it in 2015, and we introduced it to the FDNY in in late 2015. And they embraced it and we rolled it out in 2016. So we're, we're four years plus into this initiative. And when I first created it, I was a firefighter, meaning I wasn't an officer.

And I thought the program was really important. I was single and not a parent. So, fast forward four years, I'm an officer, so when I go to work, I'm in charge of a number of young guys and gals. Many of them, you know, super motivated, not really much in the way of experience. And I'm married and I have a mental performance is important to me in ways that I didn't even know possible in 2016. 

And I certainly am not always the best version of myself as a father or as a, as a husband, but kind of the thinking, the process, the skills, the approach, it's all transferrable. It's all portable. Like I know if I get something in exchange wrong with my wife, which happens more frequently than I probably would like, or even my daughter, my daughter's in meltdown, and I respond in a way that's probably not necessarily the best version of myself.

It's kind of like back to the drawing board. And I, I largely use the same type of thinking, the same process, the same approach, the same skills that I do. When I think about with firefighting, of course the language is a little different. The empathy required is, you know. On emotional level, it's, it's very different.

But procedurally it's very, very similar. And I think that one of the reasons I've been able to kind of excel in my personal life in a way that I, I hadn't pre MPI, is because of, and I, and I mean at home, I mean, my relationship with my wife, and I mean, my relationship with my daughter is in large part to what I have learned from MPI.

And I know that every time I go to work where I'm a better version of myself at home, I come into work much more balanced than if I come into work flustered or frustrated things at home. And I know historically, particularly in the New York City Fire Department, uh, historically kind of like Irish Catholic tough organization made up of largely immigrants that, you know.

Just had a very ery stoic mindset. It was like what happens at work stays at work. What happens at home stays at home. Never should shout out to me. Never shout out to influence your performance in the other arena. That sounds great. It's complete bullshit, right? From a scientific or psychological perspective.

We are who we are, right? I and what happens at home? I bring that to work. It, it's just been super helpful. 

[00:41:39] Paddy Steinfort: I assume you saw the same thing in like deployment versus coming home, right? Like you can pretend that you can keep them apart, but they affect each other, I would assume. 

[00:41:46] Jason Brezler: Yeah, and I would argue, I don't think I'm unique in this regard 'cause a lot of the guys I went to war with feel the same way.

And a lot of guys that I work with in the fire department feel the same way sometimes. The stress that we experience at work though, it, it gains a lot of popularity and attention in the media and, and the literature and, and film, et cetera. Yeah, it's important, right? 'cause arguably we're, we're risking our lives for others.

But I would actually argue that it's actually easier to manage and navigate than it is the, the stress associated with responsibilities at home, right? Whether it be members of your family that are sick, economic hardship, turmoil in your relationship, or recent miscarriage. I mean, you, you name it. I mean, I always say like, I have a buddy, one of my close best friends in the whole world, his Navy Seal Commander, one of my peers who I have great admiration for, he says like.

Say a day where all four of my kids are throwing a temper tantrum versus at the toughest patrol, you know, or toughest mission with a SEAL team. Like, I'm probably gonna tell you that the mission with the SEAL team is less stressful than a day where all four of all four of my kids just happen to be on the backside of the curve.

Like, I think that's true for many professionals in like, in this line of work. I know that a lot of guys have benefited. I mean, they, they lead with like, Hey, this is making me a better firefighter and fire officer, and that's what they talk about at work. But I know on a personal level, a lot of guys have benefited from the program and the resources that we've been able to tap into, you know, folks like Fader have been super, super helpful and I, I think at the end of the day, it'd be interesting to see what Fader has to offer, but I think I'm borrowing this mantra from the Cubs, but the mantra is better people make better baseball players or better people make better athletes. And at the end of the day, that's what we, we all want to be right.

You know, whether we're New York City firefighters, US Marines, we just want to be better people and better stewards of, of our society. 

[00:43:39] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. It actually made me think it to ask that question that kicked you off on that because you were describing some of the exercises and how it helped in some ways.

And I was vividly reminded of a player I worked with way back in my journey in New Zealand, in their international cricket team. And he's gone to do great things in the Premier League in India and these guys, of all the sports I've worked with, that's about as close to deployment as you get. They go away for three to six months at a time, staying in places where they have to have armed guards all the time.

And when we were maybe a year or two into it, Brendan McCullum, I remember him turning to me and saying, you know, man, this has really helped. And I thought he was referring to his cricket, which he'd taken off. And I was like, yeah, that's cool man. I noticed you've been much more calm at crease and you've been better in leadership meetings like a better captain.

He's like, that's not what I'm talking about. Like my wife and my new baby are over there and I've been a better father than I could ever have imagined two years ago when we started this. And it just, you know, I still even get a little goosebump now talking about it, but it's, I immediately thought of it.

When you're telling that story before failure, you, I hadn't even thought of this, it's coming to me right now, but you wrote a book called Life is Sport or Life as Sport. Life As Sport. 

Yeah. I mean, I'm super passionate about this concept of transferable skills. You know, one of the reasons I wrote Life as Sport is because as Jason's talking about, whether we're talking to firefighters, we're talking to NFL players.

I'm in a business setting and we're talking about high performance there. You know, basically when people come afterwards to talk to me, half of the questions are, I wonder, you know, how this could help me in my relationship? Or how this could help me be a better father or a better mother or better parent.

And you know, I, I believe truly that life's a sport in the sense that you're playing, but you're playing for much higher stakes. You're playing for love, and you're playing for connection, and you're playing for family, which to most people are the most important thing. That is the most important game, if you will.

And so I totally believe these abilities are transferable. And often we have the worst filter at home. Like if you think about, you know, at work, you're usually able, okay, maybe, maybe in the firehouse there's a little bit different norm, but you're usually able to not curse. Like you have a good filter, you, you're able to control things.

You know, like you can think about how we treat our loved ones compared to how we work. We act at work, at work, at home. We let our filter go to to go away basically. And so being able to, to learn ways to stay calm, to even focus on task relevant cues, you know, in parenting I think is for me personally.

[00:46:07] Paddy Steinfort: You know what, what would outta curiosity for someone who's not a parent, what would a task relevant cue be when your four kids are, as Jason, you said they're on the backside of the curve. Like what is the task relevant queue when you totally lost control. 

[00:46:20] Jonathan Fader: Yeah. The task relevant queue there is your frustration. We think interesting. We think that the cue that we should be paying attention to is what our kids are doing. That's kind of irrelevant. What's most important, you know, I'll tell you a quick story is where like my younger daughter used to torture my older daughter by her, like making out with her.

She would just grab her and like, just start, my younger daughter was like four, and my other daughter was like, teenager. And this would like get her so frustrated and she'd run up and grab her and kind of like attack, kiss her. And so I was giving my younger daughter a timeout, and I, I took her, I said, listen, you're gonna get a timeout.

And I picked her up, I took over and I was frustrated and I was like, you gotta stop doing that. You, you're not listening to your sister. You're making her mad. And I'm talking to her and, you know, I'm not yelling, but my voice sounded irritated. And I put her down in her timeout for a couple minutes and she came out.

I was like, okay, so what do you think you could do differently? And how did you get that time out? She said, because you were mad. She, there's no learning. And so what I mean is if we're doing anything out of frustration in our relationship. It's likely not gonna work. So the most relevant cue is where am I?

Am I like red light, yellow light, or green light in terms of, should I be even having this conversation right now? And if I'm yellow or red, you know what? I need the skills to be able to calm myself down in that situation. Or even just the recognition. Forget about the skills, getting better at self-awareness.

No, I'm in like a yellow light or a red light situation here. I need to remove myself so that I can be a parent. You know, 50% of conflict I think, at home is just because we don't realize that we're getting so irritated that we're operating with our monkey brain. 

[00:47:52] Paddy Steinfort: Right? And I can see that totally being that the great, very tangible red light, yellow light, green light thing for whether I'm ready for a conversation or not, is I'm immediately thinking, Jason, of I'm a leader of a patrol, or I'm a leader of a fire engine, and someone's just done, Sally's just done the wrong thing, or Jason's just screwed up over here and I gotta get out because someone's gonna die if they do it again.

But that knowing whether you red, yellow, or green is probably the exact same skill. Jonathan's just applied there to parenting, applies to being a good leader or unfair. 

[00:48:25] Jason Brezler: Yeah, absolutely. When we introduced a greater understanding in the FDNY and created a, a language that was tactically acceptable, consistent with our kind of culture, I think we just all, everyone could visualize the curve.

When I say the curve, I mean the New York Dotson upside down U curve. So we say like, yeah, I was right at center and being, I was over aroused in that moment. I was red, right? I was, I was right at center. And I think that the more time that I've spent thinking about it and, and putting it into action, oftentimes I actually try to like, in that moment, stop, right, and just try to like visualize where I am on that curve. 

And usually if, if I'm frustrated right, or I'm at risk of being a suboptimal performer, right? Or having a suboptimal conversation or being a suboptimal leader, it's generally not because I'm left. It's not because I'm under aroused, it's because I'm well right as center and then I need to dial it.

I need to dial it back. Right? I need to get it into that sweet spot. And I think one of the things that, and I'm certainly far from perfectly, I have a long way to go, but one of the things I've been able to do over time is to reduce the amount of time that I spend right of center if I do go right of center, right?

But I think that's sometimes is like, and I think it comes from Victor Frankel, right? But the significance of sometimes putting time. Between the stimulus and our response response. Right. You're talking about who navigated greater stress, right. Or or pressure than, than than Frankl did. Not too many folks right?

But the ability to sometimes just put time between the stimulus and your response, and I think doing everything you can to kind of over, over time reduce that time. 

[00:50:02] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Those who aren't aware of Viktor Frankl, author of fantastic book called Man's Search for Meaning, but in particular is the reason he was so the book is so incredible, is it relates his experience as a psychologist, but also as a prisoner in Nazi Germany, you know, in a prisoner of war here and, and he's famous for a couple lines.

One is between stimulus and response. There's a space and that's where you need to be to choose who you wanna be. But secondly, that he has a great why to live will be able to bear any how and think about the how that he as a prisoner of. Germany. And that brings me to a question that kind of combines a couple things that we've just spoken about.

One was you talked about the importance of connection. Like it's one of the biggest needs, perhaps the biggest needs of humans, right? Definitely. It's the antidote to depression. So loneliness is the biggest associated with depression. And if we're well connected, it tends to off and likewise su, we look for as a positive, not just as a defense, but Jason.

I mean, both of you also spoke about being prepared for these events so that we don't go into red green, sorry, we don't go into red and we stay in yellow or green being clear on what we do and what our cues are. Right. Long-winded wind up, but here's the question. Is there a way that you can be paired. So that you don't get to a red in a relationship point of view, whether it's life as sport at home or whether it's with a colleague or as a leader.

Are there things that you teach in some of the MPI stuff that's about connecting and building connection over time in advance as a buffer so that when we get into a hotspot it's not as bad? 

[00:51:45] Jason Brezler: Yeah, absolutely. I I, I often communicate to leaders, um, 'cause as, as a company officer, right? Like I go to work, I'm in charge of a, an engine company or a ladder company or a rescue company, and I have the unique responsibility.

It's someone to being a platoon commander in an infantry unit. I'm actually a player coach. And one of the things we know about player coaches is there aren't too many, right? In any professional sport domain. And the reason there aren't too many is because it's really hard to actually be, be, be good and be effective right there.

Arguably in a, there've been a couple in pro baseball folks that were Hall of Fame athletes, but they weren't actually very good in terms of wearing both, both hats at the same time. So when you go to these fires and emergencies, you're actually, you, you're, you're playing the, you're competing, but you're also leading, you're responsible for, for not only like maintaining awareness around your own performance, but also perform performance of your subordinates, right?

And in a tactical, lethal environment. So it, it's imperative then for me to not only understand kind of where I'm at on the curve. And the curve works for me, right? But for others it might be the traffic light scheme, right? But the curve works for me, but it's also imperative for me to know where my subordinates are at on the curve.

And actually sometimes too, where the command, where the incident commander is on that curve. And sometimes really like, and this has been the product of of MPI, for me and my work with Fader and so many others, is just even sometimes having the awareness that how I message my superior commander or my subordinates will influence where they go on the curve next.

Same is true at home, right? If I wanna have a particularly hard, challenging conversation, my wife, just knowing how I preface it, how I message it, the language that I use, the tone that I use, my body language is, might be the difference between her staying centered on the curve and me pushing her right?

It's easy if she goes right to say, well, you lost your composure. But I'm also somewhat complicit and responsible for that. So that relationship piece and just thinking about, hey, if somebody's right of center, what can I do to help them dial it back? You know, like I say, very rarely, particularly in highly competitive endeavors, do we have folks that spend there a lot of time left of center and what we call the complacent range where we have to say, Hey, look man, like it, it's time to dial it up.

Generally, it it's the other way where folks are so motivated, they're so inspired, they're so ambitious that you actually have to have them help them dial it back. Yeah. 

[00:54:02] Paddy Steinfort: And so Fader to you as well, like talking about being prepared in advance or almost putting money in your relationship bank account so that when you make a withdrawal it go in deficit.

Like what are some things that, that you might teach there to either athletes or fire operators to be able to help build that up in advance so that they're, they've a tougher relationship that can stand longer. 

[00:54:27] Jonathan Fader: I mean, as you said, Paddy, you know, connection is the [00:54:30] magic elixir of performance in a team.

You know, the Jason has brought Sebastian Younger, who's the author of the book Tribe, uh, to talk and, you know, consult as part of the FBNY initiative. And you know, that book is all about how people crave that connection. And when they lose it, they want to go back to it, even if it means going back to a very, an environment with a lot of friction.

So we know that about people. And my perception of this is basically that what makes things difficult to operate in a team is fear. We fear being blamed for criticized. That's just a very natural thing that humans fear. We fear blame and criticism because it's deeply rooted in us. If we were criticized or blamed as part of an ancient tribe, we would be exile.

And if we were exile, we'd be killed. And so we're walking around trying to not get blamed and criticized, and we're willing to do a lot to not do that. And so what helps with that? Is the development of what a lot of thinkers call psychological safety. And what that means basically is creating an environment in which I feel that I can say what's on my mind and I won't be criticized if that environment doesn't operate.

I mean one of the biggest, you know, learning about this is, is aircraft disaster. Almost every aircraft disaster results in a mis missing of particular data. And oftentimes it's because a junior person has said, Hey, listen, is something going wrong here, but doesn't feel enough confidence, enough psychological safety to be able to really call out and say, Hey, wait, this is going the wrong way.

And so what I found that'd be helpful for that and what most thinking is, is creating experiences for people in which they can actually simply share who they are. Now the trick to this is that once you start to do that, it seems really corny. So you gotta find a way to do it that works. What I found to be like really helpful there is to create an environment where people can actually just talk about what their experience has been. 

So I think the first step to that is what like the Navy seals do is after they have an operation, they come back and they debrief. They talk about like, okay, this is what I saw, this is what I felt. And so that, that's a very basic way that people can do it. But I mean, leading up to higher ways is, which where people share more about what's going on in their lives.

[00:56:44] Paddy Steinfort: Can you give us an example of a question you might use to set that up? Because it might be a nice way to finish it. People can go and start this conversation themselves. Like, we kind of played around at startle. How, Jason, how'd you meet and how did I meet? And like, a little bit personal. Is it, are you talking about that or are you talking about going deeper? 

[00:57:01] Jonathan Fader: Well, I think, you know, you have to start wherever people are comfortable. So I'll give you an example. I mean, one exercise I've done with teams is where I have people, you know, shout out what they saw other people do well because we're so focused on, as Jason and I talk about if something goes wrong, we talk about it endlessly.

It, this is true in football or in in fire department if something goes wrong. There's like, you know, if something goes wrong on a football team, you know, as you know, working with the Eagles, in my experience with the Giants, you, the team's gonna watch tape for like a three the entire week. If something goes right, they, we don't spend a lot of time like thinking about why it went right.

And so I think just having a group where people sit around after a particular event and say like, Hey, this is one thing I think that went well, this person did this. That's an example of developing psych psychological safety because your team members all of a sudden realize, oh shoot. Like that person saw me and respected me and valued me.

There's this kind of joke like in a lot of locker rooms where people will say, like, if someone says I love you, it's kind of like, I love you, f you man. Like there's uncomfortability with that, right? But finding a way to point out like what we see that's positive can actually help to build that trust and connection.

Yeah. And you know, so I think that's one of the things I think that that teams can do to develop that and explain and think about how that can be done based on what. Level of comfort with that particular unit or group? 

[00:58:22] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned culture at the start, Jason, as a, like you say, not many people put a lot of thought into how it develops, but definitely locker room cultures.

In the old days, you would get to know people and get that vulnerability and acceptance through drinking games and stories that were told at night and all that sort of stuff. Is there any parallels to that in military or fire where there is a cultural development of those relationships? Or does it, does it need to be more intentional?

[00:58:47] Jason Brezler: I think the fire service has a leg up on the military in this regard because the military, everyone's almost in a perpetual state of motion, right? You go to a unit, you're there for two years, you move on, you get a new commander, you get a new sergeant major. I mean, everyone is, you're just constantly in flux.

Whereas in a firehouse, you tend to be there for several. Years. I mean, it's kind of like more, more, probably more consistent with what pro sport was before the explosion and free agency, right? Where you would, you would kind of be with the same team and the same teammates. And then you also develop some meaningful relationships on, you know, oftentimes outside of work, right?

You have social events, your wives come, your kids grew up together, and you're kind of navigating the challenges. Like multiple guys are kind of navigating pregnancy, right? Their wives are pregnant at the same time. They bring kids into this world at the same time. They're coming to work sleep deprived at the same time.

But I think one of the best ways to get people to be a more vulnerable with each other. 'cause I think that's really in essence, what Fader speaking to. And that's really tough in tactic, tactical minded elite organizations where people pride themselves on being tough, right? Is to just get people outside their comfort zone.

And sometimes it comes in the form of training. Sometimes that's comes in the form of a weekend camping expedition. Sometimes it comes in the form of doing a, a tough mutter or a Spartan race because when you, when you do something of of that nature, every, you're gonna quickly find like that no one is strong across the board.

That's true in all elite teams. That's true. And for guys in Rescue two, that's true for guys in, in the SEAL teams. It's certainly true for guys in the Marine Corps infantry. Like you're gonna try to, you're gonna quickly identify where people's strengths and weaknesses are, and quickly in those moments of discomfort, you become increasingly reliant on those around you.

And the reality is like you can't hide it. I mean we're, we've all been guilty sometimes of, of, of kind of hiding it and hoping it our inadequacy wouldn't surface. I mean then we often run the risk sometimes of overcompensating for it and we quickly get called out for it. But I think everything comes down to like connection and, and relationships.

Like once we have a relationship, I mean, Sader and I are able to have like really thought provoking conversations where we challenge each other, both professionally and personally because we kind of know we operate in a safe space and we have a really, really strong relationship and connection and we just seek for each other to be better versions of ourselves.

And I think we're probably more aware of each other's blind spots than many other people that we, that we know are. And benefit from that. 

[01:01:15] Paddy Steinfort: It reminds me of a mentor of mine back in Australia who first probably set me on this path and we were working with elite teams and he said, you know, the bit we were talking about, what's the difference between a great team and an OK team said, here's the real deal.

The most elite teams, like the highest performing environments, are absolutely brutal when it comes to accountability. Absolutely loving when it comes to care and they both exist at the same time because that means you can be brutal without anyone feeling Butler or running away, so they're able to get better faster and hold higher standards.

[01:01:46] Jason Brezler: Years ago, I would've said that the key from like social sciences, behavioral sciences in terms of resources to taking teams, great teams and great performance to the next level, lighting, neuroscience, cognitive psychology, et cetera. Now I'm of the belief it actually lies in like emotional and social intelligence, right?

It's like the guys, like the Dan Coyle's out there, right? Like folks that helped us to gain a better understanding of just how important those aspects of performance, of really connection to make us even better performers 

[01:02:16] Paddy Steinfort: And really of life as, as we've all spoken about there. I think that's a good place to wind up.

I wanna thank you both for your time, Jason especially, thank you for your service in so many ways, both overseas and also at home. And thank you both for the amazing work you're doing, pioneering a program. As NP Fire Department of New York, and hopefully that's a first of many similar programs at elite level tactical environments.

Thanks again for your time. For listeners who wanna find either of you, what do they do? Besides Google your name.

[01:02:48] Jonathan Fader: You can find Life of Sport on Amazon, and you can find me and contact me at jonathanbader.com. 

[01:02:55] Paddy Steinfort: Alright, there you go. Got your own website. Love it. Jason, anything similar for you.

[01:02:59] Jason Brezler: You could find me and contact me through leadershipunderfire.com.

[01:03:04] Paddy Steinfort: Thank you again guys. This has been a amazing, I said it was gonna be an extra special episode and I certainly up that, so I appreciate you getting on hand.